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Kinefinity able to do 4k S35 high speed on 6k sensor? RAW + PRORES

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Rich Miro

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How is the Kinefinity able to do this with their $6,000 camera and RED can't do it with their $50k cam.

this is crazy.

This again leads me to believe software issue over hardware.

I know part is oversampled, but the high speed isn't.


http://imgur.com/m2LxpgO
 
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RED's max frame rate on their lowest end current camera at 4K HD is 120fps.......

And there is no hit on DR, which is important if we are talking something like the Varicam....
 
It is not even UHD for the 100fps
I thought Kinefinity was dead as viable digital cinema camera
 
Phil Holland said:
RED's max frame rate on their lowest end current camera at 4K HD is 120fps.......

And there is no hit on DR, which is important if we are talking something like the Varicam....
Click to expand...

)
They are claiming NO CROP sensor though. the 4k high speed is using the whole s35 6k sensor. Outputting high frame rates in prores and Raw. (74fps)

Go look at the photo again. They are getting FULL SENSOR (6k) downsampled in cam to 4k higher speed(74fps). (even when the 6k cannot record at those speeds.)

check it out. Also they are able to get RAW (not prores) 4k uncropped S35. (oversampled)

What I'm saying, is that this achievement begs the question is our camera able to achieve something like this? having a 6k image (uncropped) downsampled from the 8k full sensor in a high frame rate in both RAW and prores. (so maybe around 60fps) using the WHOLE sensor not cropped.


check it out Phil. or am I wrong.
 
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Rich Miro said:
check it out Phil. or am I wrong.
Click to expand...

The biggest aspect of "proper full pixel raw" in terms of high speed recording is you are limited by the sensor technology's actual readout speed.

From what I can read you are wrong, and what they are saying is 4K "Oversampled" isn't available in KineRaw. It is in ProRes. Just like what RED does. The other 4K from what I am reading is a crop of the sensor and they list it as M 4/3. Which is the same as what I saw earlier this year.

kinefinity6Kspecs.jpg


On a side note. What RED has done is focused on what the "most" they can get out of a sensor technology. And by that I mean they are tapping into the sensor tech to achieve the most possible captured dynamic range as well as the best color they can extract. There are interesting things you can do with a sensor for instance by "where you put things" and limiting some of the DR, but that's a different direction.
 
Jonathan Grevsen said:
Well, my 5D Mark III with Magic Lantern shoots RAW in MLV format (transcodes to CinemaDNG) in Full HD using the whole sensor
Click to expand...

I forgot if the 5D pixel bin's or line skips to accomplish that?

But either way, that's not something you want your cinema camera to do.
 
Phil Holland said:
The biggest aspect of "proper full pixel raw" in terms of high speed recording is you are limited by the sensor technology's actual readout speed.

From what I can read you are wrong, and what they are saying is 4K "Oversampled" isn't available in KineRaw. It is in ProRes. Just like what RED does. The other 4K from what I am reading is a crop of the sensor and they list it as M 4/3. Which is the same as what I saw earlier this year.

kinefinity6Kspecs.jpg


On a side note. What RED has done is focused on what the "most" they can get out of a sensor technology. And by that I mean they are tapping into the sensor tech to achieve the most possible captured dynamic range as well as the best color they can extract. There are interesting things you can do with a sensor for instance by "where you put things" and limiting some of the DR, but that's a different direction.
Click to expand...


Double check your image. Looks like the 4kUHD @ 74 fps is using the WHOLE sensor not M4/3 @ prores & RAW. EVEN when the 6k capture can't record at that high of a framerate.

thanks.
 
I question the use of RAW terminology for something scaled. Also, Dragon 6K means shooting on a larger than s35mm sensor, when cropping on the Terra you are going sub-s35mm. You could in theory get a sensor to totally outperform Red in terms of speed, but you are reducing other aspects of it to achieve it.

As with everything today, you have to compromise and get a feel for what works for you in terms of features, image quality and reliability. If you feel the Terra outperforms a Red Weapon 6K for your needs, that is the camera for you. Personally I would not put my trust in it.
 
Rich Miro said:
Double check your image. Looks like the 4kUHD @ 74 fps is using the WHOLE sensor not M4/3 @ prores & RAW. EVEN when the 6k capture can't record at that high of a framerate.

thanks.
Click to expand...

Then you truly and absolutely must ask yourself *how* they are achieving high speed 74 fps when their full pixel 4K does only 44 fps. They are doing something *weird*, I just don't know what specifically. They could be line skipping, pixel skipping, etc....

Let me check their manual.......

Oh. Here you go:

HiSpeed mode of Kine camera is a special operation mode to make CMOS image sensor sample images at much higher speed. The frame rate increases much more than normal mode, but it may suffers a little bit aliasing. TERRA 6K has HiSpeed mode, but TERRA 5K does not have such operation mode
Click to expand...

Bin or skip, whatever you want to call it.


RED won't do something weird as it's against their policy and truly against what "RAW" stands for.

And again, you can get 6K FF 6144x3160 at 82 fps.....
 
Thank you Phil. Much appreciated.

but to utilize a downscaled 8k image into a pro res file @ high speeds. would that be viable or usable footy even if there were aliasing? I wonder.. . . . ... . .. .
 
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Christoffer Glans said:
I question the use of RAW terminology for something scaled. Also, Dragon 6K means shooting on a larger than s35mm sensor, when cropping on the Terra you are going sub-s35mm. You could in theory get a sensor to totally outperform Red in terms of speed, but you are reducing other aspects of it to achieve it.

As with everything today, you have to compromise and get a feel for what works for you in terms of features, image quality and reliability. If you feel the Terra outperforms a Red Weapon 6K for your needs, that is the camera for you. Personally I would not put my trust in it.
Click to expand...

I apologize for not being more precise in my reasoning behind asking these questions Christoffer. I'm a RED believer/owner (epic-w) all the way. I'm just wondering if there is still some untapped goodness left to be had within the Camera line(software wise). This isn't a us vs them conversation. I'm just wondering how the technology is achieved and if it's something that could be utilized within the RED system. To me it seems that there is still a little bit more untapped reservoir of goodness that can be had within the RED cameras we own, that is with the right software.
 
Rich Miro said:
Thank you Phil. Much appreciated.

but to utilize a downscaled 8k image into a pro res file @ high speeds. would that be viable or usable footy even if there were aliasing? I wonder.. . . . ... . .. .
Click to expand...

You are dealing with a different beast. It's a converted RGB image with a special encoder and scaling hardware, which is why DSMC2 cameras can even do it.

I know you are itching for a miracle and perhaps a change of guard, but technology is pretty cut and dry. There are some things that are possible, but as always they will result in trade offs.
 
Rich Miro said:
Double check your image. Looks like the 4kUHD @ 74 fps is using the WHOLE sensor not M4/3 @ prores & RAW. EVEN when the 6k capture can't record at that high of a framerate.

thanks.
Click to expand...

Rich - the image is pretty explicit - 4K HD (Oversample) would use the whole sensor and KineRAW is is listed as N/A. 4KHD (HiSpeed) is listed at 74FPS but it never says Oversample, which means it doesn't use the whole sensor, which means it's a crop.
 
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