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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Kessler Cine Drive with Red Epic

Marc Ruiz

Marc Ruiz

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We got our Cine Drive working and ran a quick test...

Definitely super rough just using garbage mats in FCP

We threw a 15mm CP on a Red Epic and gave it a go...naturally lit so we had it cranked to 2000 ISO and the lens is only a 2.9

The Cine Drive seems to have a lot of promise for future projects (still some kinks to work out) and what I like most is that it can support heavier builds

Thanks for taking a look!

https://vimeo.com/64435684

Marc Ruiz
 
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I do not believe they have made the cable yet to trigger the epic

That is definitely needed - sooner than later I hope

I bought the 500 motor bc I wanted the option of heavier builds

I bought it w the k-pod system as well to get the benefit of a longer track - I've noticed the longer slider doesn't support the weight wonderfully
 
Absolutely love our Cinedrive! We run it using the iPad mini and powering it using paglink batteries and the paglink hub

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- Stacey: I have the 500 - I wanted a motor that would support larger builds. It says 50 lbs - but the capacity seems a lower throughout the whole system

I do not know if they have made a red trigger yet. I did not buy it with timelapse intent funny enough - but it is something I am looking into for possible future use.

I have to assume something works based on Chad's work.

- Chad: Those shots look pretty amazing - What kind of tripod are you using on your kpod system. I was thinking a C-Stand with an adaptor for a 3/8 might do the trick?

- Paul - A bloop light is NEEDED!

- Patrick - Time - It takes a lot of time to just test this
 
PatrickFaith said:
Hi Marc or Chad, are you guys controlling the cinedrive in windows or ipad ... also if windows ... are you using the ethernet cable? I have been having some problems using the ipad interface over wireless, and was wondering if I should move to windows via ethernet?
Click to expand...

The only problem with the wifi I had was when it went to sleep it would disconnect. So I disabled that and you don't have to worry about it disconnecting.. I use a iPad mini, but would suggest a full size iPad. The bigger screen is nice when editing the timeline. I could see using the Ethernet would be better if your doing stop motion work and having it connected for an extended amount of time. Otherwise it's just another cable you have to deal with. I do carry an Ethernet cable just incase. Hope that helps.
 
Chad Lancaster said:
The only problem with the wifi I had was when it went to sleep it would disconnect. So I disabled that and you don't have to worry about it disconnecting.. I use a iPad mini, but would suggest a full size iPad. The bigger screen is nice when editing the timeline. I could see using the Ethernet would be better if your doing stop motion work and having it connected for an extended amount of time. Otherwise it's just another cable you have to deal with. I do carry an Ethernet cable just incase. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I cut over to using windows 8 and a bunch of 4-axis moves worked perfectly. Also I like windows 8, in that i can save and load different sequences (i do need to initialize the mark start/stop of each axis every time i reboot). I have been looking at the xml, trying to figure out a nice way to load the positional move right into nuke ... I can do it manually now, I'll write a script when I have some time (this will save on camera solves when I have something in the way, or things are really out of focus ... so I will not have to do all my camera solves in syntheyes).
 
I've been doing a bunch of work to test the limitations of the Cinedrive. For timelapse it has been working great, working with Canon 1D and C300...no problem. Epic is definitely max'ing out it's payload though and I find the shuttlepod rails take a while to level out to a smooth roll at 12'.

Firmware version 2D seems to be having a pretty serious problem with drift on multi-pass takes. I just tried a four pass shot and nothing was lining up where the replicated model walks out like a chorus line, moves to three positions on the bike, cleans it for a moment before the fourth girl enters screen left with a camera and everyone smiles for the camera. Unlike the simple matting professed in this video (https://vimeo.com/63257831), this shot took about a week of After Effects work to make everything seamless. Each shot has to be motion stabilized and keyframe adjusted before roto and matting. Unfortunately Kessler don't have a list of known bugs with current firmware so I was only able to find this problem after the shoot.



BobbyJo_Test_Comp1.jpg
 
Lack of a bloop light for this multi-pass shots is a real pain but what I'm also finding difficult for more complex moves is the lack of feedback from the KOS software. When working with a move that is more that 2-3 keyframes I find that I am often hitting an axis limit when plotting a move but the KOS software doesn't show which axis is hitting the limit or where that limit even is, instead it just pushed the length of the entire move. Working with the FLAIR software for the Milo you would get an error showing the keyframe and axis that was being max'd out with the current move and the option to adjust it to the maximum speed. It would really be helpful if when plotting a move the graph would shot maximum adjustment in a yellow or greyed out section.
 
you should let Eric know

Paul J Steinberg said:
Lack of a bloop light for this multi-pass shots is a real pain but what I'm also finding difficult for more complex moves is the lack of feedback from the KOS software. When working with a move that is more that 2-3 keyframes I find that I am often hitting an axis limit when plotting a move but the KOS software doesn't show which axis is hitting the limit or where that limit even is, instead it just pushed the length of the entire move. Working with the FLAIR software for the Milo you would get an error showing the keyframe and axis that was being max'd out with the current move and the option to adjust it to the maximum speed. It would really be helpful if when plotting a move the graph would shot maximum adjustment in a yellow or greyed out section.
Click to expand...
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
...I've been doing a bunch of work to test the limitations of the Cinedrive. For timelapse it has been working great, working with Canon 1D and C300...no problem. Epic is definitely max'ing out it's payload though and I find the shuttlepod rails take a while to level out to a smooth roll at 12'.

... Lack of a bloop light for this multi-pass shots is a real pain but what I'm also finding difficult for more complex moves is the lack of feedback from the KOS software. When working with a move that is more that 2-3 keyframes I find that I am often hitting an axis limit when plotting a move but the KOS software doesn't show which axis is hitting the limit or where that limit even is, instead it just pushed the length of the entire move. Working with the FLAIR software for the Milo you would get an error showing the keyframe and axis that was being max'd out with the current move and the option to adjust it to the maximum speed. It would really be helpful if when plotting a move the graph would shot maximum adjustment in a yellow or greyed out section.
Click to expand...
Cool shot. On the payload, it is fine with my epic with compact primes, but when I put full PL cinema lenses on it has problems on the Tilt axis(i have to get fanatical on centering the weight). I think I was having problems similiar to what you had, when on complex multi key moves i was getting almost like network "hops" that put it out of sequence. I wish there was a simple bug list somewhere or website for people that do action shoots(i.e. i don't use it for timelapse). Also every time I turn it off and on, it looses the start/stop mark ... the unit is just a bit too temperamental at this point for shoots where your under the gun. I also get a lot of weird keyframe errors, when i place keyframes, it says something about duplicate keyframes and extends the timeline for some reason.

Chad Lancaster said:
you should let Eric know
Click to expand...
Kessler is great in that they really respond well on email (i think i have most peoples email at kessler), but I really hate to bug them, and I normally do my shooting on the weekends and don't have time to call on the weekdays(when they are around and responding). I guess i need to send in bug reports on all my problems. On windows it will be easier for me to document my bugs(i was having problems saving and sending bug reports on my ipad, since when I'm using the ipad ... it was disconnected from the network ... with windows, i can just save it to a file, then send the problems when the PC is connected back to the internet).
 
Patrick, are you on v2D of the firmware? I was also having terrible wifi connection problems and had to roll back to firmware 2C (hope you kept a copy on your machine, they don't have it on their web site) and then reinstall 2D before mine was reliable wirelessly. Now the wireless connection is quite good. I'm similar to you in the sense that I have ipad mini for timelapse but for real time I have a Win 8 Sony Vaio laptop.

As an aside, a Sony duo ultra book is perfect laptop for KOS, folds into a tablet, pops up into a laptop, stylus for detailed tablet adjustments, Bluetooth mouse for detailed laptop adjustments, wifi and Ethernet, make it a tablet but plug in to Ethernet ...works perfectly.

For your duplicate key frames issue, I'm wondering if you have axis turned on that are causing conflicts. The only time I am seeing the duplicate key frame issue is if I'm dropping a key frame on top of an existing one. When making complex moves I find you really need to be diligent about which axis are turned on before hitting that record key frame button (why?!!! WHY!!!!!????? Do they not have an undo command ????)

The duration extensions can be totally baffling, again it would be great to get an explanation in the form of an error message as to why they are happening. Often it is a weird ramp between key frames that is pushing a motor (usually dolly I find) to the max speed and causing your :45 move to have a max speed of 2:58.

One feature the Mark Roberts FLAIR software has as well as the MOSYS system is a "zero mark". If the system is powered down you can zero it by lining up to a crosshairs that you've made on the wall. You could do the same by making tape marks on the pan/tilt/dolly and recalibrating the system to them when you boot back up. In theory, your saved move should play back exactly as you had it if your marks are precise enough. The simplicity of KOS is great for setting up simple 2-3 key frame moves, you can get them up and running quick but the lack of deeper control has been frustrating when setting up detailed real time moves.

Right now I would not attempt a multi-pass shot with v2D. The that drift has cost me thousands of dollars in additional post costs, which is especially frustrating in that it was a known bug. When I emailed them a link showing the accuracy drifting they acknowledged it right away, sadly they didn't take down the video showing how easy it was to setup and how all it takes is simple matting to comp all the shots together.
 
I just upgraded to the new software and the focus motor loses track of keyframes almost as soon place them. its a simple head on shot but the
focus marks never line up the same time twice no matter how i make
 
Using v.2D?

That version is a real mess for precision. If you have v.2C available I'd roll back to it of you want to do precision moves.

What lens were you using? I tried a shot with a GL Optics rehoused 100mm macro and found that there was a little play in the focus ring, just a little bit but it was enough to throw off the focus even when the motor was hitting its marks with v.2C. Same shot and software with one of my Ultraprimes and it nailed the focus every time.

Kessler are aware of the drift in the current firmware and intend to have it fixed (I am told) by the next firmware release.
 
Paul Hazlett said:
I just upgraded to the new software and the focus motor loses track of keyframes almost as soon place them. its a simple head on shot but the
focus marks never line up the same time twice no matter how i make
Click to expand...
My focus controller has a little play, which doesn't matter much on my cinema glass since it has so much range on focus. It would be a problem with still glass that has a short throw.

Paul J Steinberg said:
Using v.2D?

That version is a real mess for precision. If you have v.2C available I'd roll back to it of you want to do precision moves.

What lens were you using? I tried a shot with a GL Optics rehoused 100mm macro and found that there was a little play in the focus ring, just a little bit but it was enough to throw off the focus even when the motor was hitting its marks with v.2C. Same shot and software with one of my Ultraprimes and it nailed the focus every time.

Kessler are aware of the drift in the current firmware and intend to have it fixed (I am told) by the next firmware release.
Click to expand...

I gave up using my ipad with the controller ... just was wasting way too much time as it did something during critical stages.

BUT, on windows 8 I am finding things much more stable, I am on firmware 2.3.0.62 and software 2.3.0.22 . It would be nice to have a website that goes over bug reports and such so I know what to avoid. I'm a Kessler fan boy, but this product is still beta. I just finished setting up a complex shot today, wish me luck for tomorrow (is a 4 axes shot).
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
Using v.2D?

That version is a real mess for precision. If you have v.2C available I'd roll back to it of you want to do precision moves.

What lens were you using? I tried a shot with a GL Optics rehoused 100mm macro and found that there was a little play in the focus ring, just a little bit but it was enough to throw off the focus even when the motor was hitting its marks with v.2C. Same shot and software with one of my Ultraprimes and it nailed the focus every time.

Kessler are aware of the drift in the current firmware and intend to have it fixed (I am told) by the next firmware release.
Click to expand...

This was the same lens I was using, and i did notice a bit of play, but I am talking huge swings in the lens. thanks for the info, will roll back to 2c, the next day the whole rig seemed to have a mind of its own till we cleared everything and started from scratch. and at times it would seemed to get amnesia
 
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