Keep 720p and 1080p

[Häakon]

This is something i've been wondering about. Equivalent FOV and perceived DOF. So you're saying that the full format 4K focus challenge will be the same as the scaled 1080p one ? You're reducing the 35mm frame to a less than 16mm one, so wouldn't that give you a better DOF if comparing the exact same FOV of as 4K vs. 1080p?

When you scale the image down you're losing resolution, so sure... some of the image is going to be smoothed out and slightly more forgiving. But it's not going to be enough of a difference to fix the fact that you're not focused properly on a subject. When you're shooting in a scaled mode from the full sensor (whatever it ends up being), you're shooting a 4K image - with 35mm DOF - and then shrinking it after the image is recorded. This is different from shooting an image with a native 1080 imager, which is using different lenses to achieve a similar FOV and which records much greater DOF. That's why it's the size of the imager itself and not the recorded resolution which is making the difference.

 

[liquidigital]

This camera's greatest technical advancement is the ability to record 4K straight to drives. That is why this camera system is making waves. If you want 720 or 1080, output that way. Shoot 4K and whatever you want to do in post will be the better for it.

Respectfully,

Jeff Tanner

Absolutely agree. Unequivocally, lose 720 and 1080p. We're moving forward here, not backwards. And if your clients want 720, you can still give it to them.

Best, Mike

 

[Gbabymogul]

When you scale the image down you're losing resolution, so sure... some of the image is going to be smoothed out and slightly more forgiving. But it's not going to be enough of a difference to fix the fact that you're not focused properly on a subject.

So, to get Viper-type focus you'll still be using the 2K RAW windowed option. For me, it's hard to picture 35mm DOF in a 1080 format. With the reduction in size and resolution and the subsequent uprez to 2K or 4K i was thinking that it may give more latitude for focus.

 

[Häakon]

For me, it's hard to picture 35mm DOF in a 1080 format. With the reduction in size and resolution and the subsequent uprez to 2K or 4K i was thinking that it may give more latitude for focus.

Think of it like this: compare a movie shot on film and one with a 1/3" chip HDV camcorder, both mastered to 1080p Blu-ray. I guarantee you haven't lost all of those wonderful 35mm characteristics in the oversample compared to the one shot with infinite DOF - and yet they're both 1080 pictures. In fact, the difference is clear even on standard def DVD.

 

[Jack Wester]

But I think that if you want to compete with film cameras in commercials, dramas, promos, musicvideos etc. you would need at least 50-60 fps from the full sensor. Otherwise we are going to see red one's with Abakas B4 adapter and an P+S technik PRO-35 on top of that shooting 2K for commercials.....crazy!

Jesper Holmström
Dagsljus Filmequipment

Good post and the best point in this debate. That crazy scenario you just described will be a reality if the wrong decision is made. Please start a new thread based on this argument.

 

[Brook Willard]

Since there's already talk of REDCODE RAW 2K scaled at 60p... I don't see a reason to make that new thread. They've said that they may be able to do it [at some point via software update]. If they pull it off... why is there still a problem?

 

[Michael Brennan]

Also, I doubt we'll have a 2K set monitoring option anytime soon, at an affordable cost anyway, so we'll be limited to 1080P monitoring anyway.

Are you sure 1920x1080 derived HDSDI will be an option if they drop 1080p and 720p recording?


Mike Brennan

 

[Password Expired]

Are you sure 1920x1080 derived HDSDI will be an option if they drop 1080p and 720p recording?


Mike Brennan

Hi Mike,

The monitoring option will remain even if 1080p or 720p is dropped unless I've misread the following from Jannard:

HD-SDI 1080P will stay in the spec. It is working now and being used for monitoring on all features being shot on RED. If we decide to eliminate 1080P and/or 720P, it will be dropped as a record to CF or RED Drive option only. Our EVF will stay 720P.

Jim

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

1080p through HD-SDI is comparatively easy because it involves no compression.

Wavelet compression isn't processor friendly.

 

[tj williams]

Ah well another day at the races. been shooting HDcam for Japanese TV. The deliverable was of course HDcam TApe.

Whats totally not clear to me is: if using the red and delivering to a producer who has their own editing system who usually accepts Panasonic or Sony HD tape. what is the least time consuming method I have to deliver similiar material in 720 or 1080 on a hard drive that they can put into the stream with their other shooters HDcam or Varicam footage, and later output to their choice of HD tape (probably HDCam) for broadcast.

This is a huge part of my business and I need to be able to deliver up to 2.5 hours of material the next day at the latest. I don't care if its scaled/windowed/RGB or Raw I just want to be able to deliver and not have to buy another tape camera to replace my current HD cam which is near the end of it's life!!!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Ah well another day at the races. been shooting HDcam for Japanese TV. The deliverable was of course HDcam TApe.

Whats totally not clear to me is: if using the red and delivering to a producer who has their own editing system who usually accepts Panasonic or Sony HD tape. what is the least time consuming method I have to deliver similiar material in 720 or 1080 on a hard drive that they can put into the stream with their other shooters HDcam or Varicam footage, and later output to their choice of HD tape (probably HDCam) for broadcast.

This is a huge part of my business and I need to be able to deliver up to 2.5 hours of material the next day at the latest. I don't care if its scaled/windowed/RGB or Raw I just want to be able to deliver and not have to buy another tape camera to replace my current HD cam which is near the end of it's life!!!

TJ -
There is NO WAY processing 2.5 hours of footage to 720 or 1080 (or anything for that matter) will take more than overnight to render. You will be just fine.

 

[Rocco Schult]

Graeme to the rescue! :help:

What about a cropping 1080P proxy based on 2K and 4K files? This shouldn't be too hard to implement. :nerd:

Thats basically what the HD-SDI do. AFAIK the outputs are cropped for an easy 2:1 scaling ratio from 4k (which would be more than 2:1)

 

[Rocco Schult]

... No need to have all formats in camera.

I don't really see a need for 720p and 1080 - as long as downconverting REDCODE to HD formats doesn't take too long.

However we definitely need more infos on rendering time in REDCINE...

It always comes down to the same ol' question of RedCine speed when resizing, no ?

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Dump 720p

Dump 720p

For what its worth...

 

[Nik Manning]

I just think shooting what the client wants is faster. No matter how long the conversion takes it takes time. 4K is the future but we shouldn't have the future shoved down our throats. The vast majority of movies will never be scene in a theater or on a 4K projector so everyone doesn't need to shoot 4K. I can't wait till I see a clip from TMZ shot on a Red cam in 4K. That will be the day.

I agree however that 2K at 96fps is major cool.

 

[donatello b]

"what is the least time consuming method I have to deliver similiar material in 720 or 1080 on a hard drive"

the least time consuming !!
1) buy/rent a AJA i/o and playback from RED thru HD-SDI into AJA i/o then from AJA firewire 800 to a Mac = real time conversion to ProRes HD codec ... can't remember if it is $3k or $4k
http://www.aja.com/html/products_Io_IoHD.html

or

2) buy/rent INDI recorder ..play back from RED to INDI ( it captures at your choice of compression ) - then transfer data to a hard drive ...approx $10k ...or if you have more $$ look at the ICON
http://www.colorspaceinc.com/

3) look for other portable products like the above ...

 

[David Battistella]

Ah well another day at the races. been shooting HDcam for Japanese TV. The deliverable was of course HDcam TApe.

This is a huge part of my business and I need to be able to deliver up to 2.5 hours of material the next day at the latest.

With RED it really might be best to RENT the deck of what ever format you need to record take the 1080P out the side of the Camera. I don't think it will be the 1080i 60 that the japanese love so much though.

Seriously, If a large chunk of your business relies on this type of work then you would have to really consider buying another tape based camera. Nobody wants to be tethered and a 320Gig transfer (without trans coding) is going to take HOURS not minutes or seconds.

You either establish a new work flow with your clients or have rent what you need on those days. If a high percentage of your business is what you are describing then any tapeless camera is going to have the same reaction from the client.

David

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I just think shooting what the client wants is faster. No matter how long the conversion takes it takes

Yeah but that's not REDCode. That's DVCPro, XDCam, HDCAM or one of those CAMs. The RED Camera does not natively capture to any of those formats. Which means it doesn't matter if you shoot 1080p... a transcode is in your future. A transcode that will *Not* be real-time. And with some GPU accelleration 4k -> 2k rescal can approach real time 24fps.

The simple fact of the matter seems to be if you want to deliver a conventional format you're going to be rendering overnight. What happens in that overnight render seems like a moot point to me. Unless you rent a tape deck and take the signal right off the HD-SDI.