Just watched first part of zacuto shootout....

[M Most]

However noble the cause, or whatever the hidden goal, of which none of us could figure out the point of taking a 5K camera, shooting it at a high compression ration, not knowing what algorithm was used to process the footage, then down rez'd to 2K, all of which will be shown on YouTube, how much more absurdity can there be?

It may seem absurd, but that's the way a lot of "real world" things are handled today. To those of us who work primarily in studio level television and features, that may seem a bit crazy, but I would venture to say that there are a lot of people here (and elsewhere) who have done exactly what you're describing more than once. When you lower the cost of the camera tools, you're inviting those who don't really have the resources or necessarily the skill to impress studio level executives to do their own projects, and to self distribute them on, yes, YouTube and other platforms. And in those cases, yes, they'd be shooting with a 5K camera at a high compression ratio (because they can't afford a lot of SSD's or storage in post), posting it however they can, and downconverting it for uploading on YouTube. So while it might be absurd to you, me, and others here, it's done every day. That doesn't make it useful as a high end test, but it doesn't mean it's irrelevant either.

I recall the first time I saw project Greenlight. I arrived at my set where I was shooting the next day and told my assistant that I had seen a brilliant show called Project Greenlight and it had to have been written by Christopher Guest or Michael McCean, the people from Spinal Tap because it was so funny and those guys know how to write brilliant comedy. The assistant then told me with a very straight face that the show was not comedy but serious. My face dropped. I thought, could people be that dumb? Only in the movie business.

Personally, I LOVED the original Project Greenlight. IIRC, I was working on Ally McBeal at the time, and a number of us on the crew - as well as at least 2 of our producers - were kind of addicted to it. We'd come in each week, discuss it, and shake our heads and laugh at the same time, knowing that if we made even one of the hundreds of mistakes they seemed to make every day we wouldn't be around very long. It might have been flabbergasting, but it sure was entertaining....... :thumbup1:

 

[Bill Anderson]

Thanks for that, Francis. As questionable as this "test" initially appeared to be, I am amazed at the level of incompetence, ignorance, and self serving propaganda, that continues to drive this hype.

 

[Bob Gundu]

While these test are going on, I'll just keep busy making money and wowing my clients with amazing looking footage from my 4K sensor. :-o

 

[Bill Anderson]

Considering the numbers and experience of those involved, I am quite surprised at how few voices there have been against this "test" and its results. Where are the Francis Kenny's of the world? Surely it doesn't take a Francis Kenny to see the difference between a $600 DSLR and an Epic/Alexa - or understand the reasons when there is a lack of difference on display. Time and again Francis has proven to be a sound voice of reason: unaffected, describing values through first hand experience, and in such a manner that even the least seasoned of us can appreciate. Keeping blacks black and whites white in a world that seems to be hell bent on becoming grey.

 

[Phil Holland]

Personally, I LOVED the original Project Greenlight. IIRC, I was working on Ally McBeal at the time, and a number of us on the crew - as well as at least 2 of our producers - were kind of addicted to it. We'd come in each week, discuss it, and shake our heads and laugh at the same time, knowing that if we made even one of the hundreds of mistakes they seemed to make every day we wouldn't be around very long. It might have been flabbergasting, but it sure was entertaining....... :thumbup1:

Many laughs for sure. Terror induced laughter!

 

[Bryce O]

All that I've taken away from this test so far... is that allot of older industry guys and professionals are angry and upset that $800 consumer tools can look as good as top-of-the-line cinema systems. This has NEVER existed before in the history of the cinema... and the dissonance and anger is clear as day. Established guys seem to absolutely hate these new tools. So is the GH2 a better tool than the F65, Epic or Alexa? Nope. But it basically looks the same with a bit more conscientious lighting. And that's a pretty huge thing.

The fact that people are being so vocal and condescending about the test is the proof. If cameras like the GH2 were truly no threat, people would just brush it off and think nothing of it. Constantly insisting that the test was a sham and "unprofessional" is just icing on the cake. It's like heads buried in the sand shouting "NO NO NO. IT'S NOT TRUE"

Deep down it's all a dick-waiving contest. Most people just want big expensive tools that other people can't buy. When this no longer becomes and option, people get angry.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Bryce O, if that's what you have "taken away from this test" then you are in a sorry assed place.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Wow what is it with this thread that people get so heated? I don't believe that middle aged slightly overweight with a few gray hair industry pros were angry at the quality of the "cheap" cameras. I believe there is some concern that both the Epic and Sony F65 should have looked better. As the technology exponentially improves all cameras benefit across the range.

Start up film makers can now use a GH2 and a 5Ds when we had to use Super 8 reversal (5 stop lattitude) with terrible sound and we had to glue the film together to make an edit! Apart from the nostalgia factor it looked like s$&t. Talented young shooters can create images that can compete with the pros. Only the deeply insecure would see this as bad. In my experience the best cinematographers are the most supportive.

IMHO the GH2 looked fantastic but when the original file was shown compared to the graded file the quality of the shot was a testimony to the skill and power available to the colorist. I want that guy working on my stuff!

Sent from my combobulatorTom Gleeson

 

[Marc Wielage]

All that I've taken away from this test so far... is that allot of older industry guys and professionals are angry and upset that $800 consumer tools can look as good as top-of-the-line cinema systems.

We figured that out a long time ago. I don't think they look "as good," but the differences can be more subtle than you might expect, especially if the cameras are put in the right hands, and if the DP does an exceptional job.

You look at Canon 5D stuff like Shane Hurlbut's Act of Valor (which made $70M), and you realize, "well, it looked OK." A $50,000 camera or a $200,000 camera would not have made the movie any more money or told the story any better. It worked fine for what they were trying to do.

I agree with Jim's point that I think they should have done all the post at a single company and tried to match everything (to some degree), to level the playing field. If you're comparing cameras, that's one thing, but having different DPs, different lighting, different cameras, and different color-correction... that's a lot of variables.

I've been part of hundreds (more like thousands) of camera tests before where DPs wanted to try different stocks, and we'd run one-light or best-light dailies so they could get an idea of how the stocks compared. If we did each transfer in different rooms, or using different machines, it would introduce yet another problem that would most likely throw off the test.

In a perfect world, it would've been one DP for the whole thing, have them use 4 or 5 cameras, and one lighting setup. Change exposure as needed, use similar lenses (if not identical), color-correct all at the same place, output all 4K on a great projector. I know of some major A-list productions that have privately done this to determine which cameras to use -- or to defend their choice of a specific camera to the studio execs -- but for political reasons, this footage is not available to public eyes.

 

[Marc Wielage]

When you lower the cost of the camera tools, you're inviting those who don't really have the resources or necessarily the skill to impress studio level executives to do their own projects, and to self distribute them on, yes, YouTube and other platforms. And in those cases, yes, they'd be shooting with a 5K camera at a high compression ratio (because they can't afford a lot of SSD's or storage in post), posting it however they can, and downconverting it for uploading on YouTube.

It does look pretty crappy, and once you introduce compression artifacts into the mix, it does tend to invalidate certain subtle differences. I've encouraged the Zacuto people to release their tests as Blu-ray discs, which is still compressed, but at least it's at a much higher bitrate that YouTube or Vimeo. If they're at Cinegear Expo in a few days, I gotta remember to stop by their booth and ask them again to consider it.

Personally, I LOVED the original Project Greenlight. IIRC, I was working on Ally McBeal at the time, and a number of us on the crew - as well as at least 2 of our producers - were kind of addicted to it.

Man, was that a scream, or what? I remember the 2003 Project Greenlight show on The Battle of Shaker Heights with Shia La Beouf, and watching those two neophyte directors fight with each other was just sad, hilarious, and pathetic, all at the same time. One of the worst things about dealing with low-budget people is when they're unprepared or haven't made the right decisions prior to the shoot, and everything just starts sliding downhill. Some of those shows were just train wrecks.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The issue is not testing or which comes out best and definitely not manufacturer participation. Whi has that on set or in post anyways.

The issue is methodology, repeatability, doing tests that are repeatable and verifyable and openness around parameters for the tests.

Tests have little value if you just look at beautifull or ugly images and tell the audience that this image comes from that source while the other image comes from another.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Bingo, Gunleik.

The way I feel about DSLR's is pretty much the way I felt about Polaroid materials: there is an immediacy and unencumbered manageability in their nature: things that are conducive to certain types of creative headspace. When the majority were crudely using polaroids only to check exposures and lighting setups before exposing on large format film, a few others were artfully managing the polaroid materials to create wonderfully unique images. But no one ever confused the qualities of film and polaroid prints - and that's where most of the trouble lies in trying to compare DSLR's to a 5K creative space.

 

[Peter Moretti]

I was there. I attended the screening at the Skywalker ranch as a guest of Canon. And my intention is to not attack anyone. But this was my impression. I was joined by senior ASC cameramen both of whom were ex presidents of the ASC. If anyone who calls themselves a cinematographer considers this absurd exercise in stupidity a test they truly don't have a clue. The test was absurd. It was unprofessional, the set was from Happy Days, the music droned, and everything looked quite bad. The iPhone was looking as good as the F65. Where I was sitting all three of the ASC cinematographers, which included Richard Crudo, ASC, Daryn Okada, ASC, and myself, Francis Kenny, ASC all thought the Epic looked the best. And even that had been murdered. But seriously, you can not call this "thing" a test. However noble the cause, or whatever the hidden goal, of which none of us could figure out the point of taking a 5K camera, shooting it at a high compression ration, not knowing what algorithm was used to process the footage, then down rez'd to 2K, all of which will be shown on YouTube, how much more absurdity can there be? What we saw was an exercise on how someone could degrade an image to the point of getting a beautiful cameras like the Epic, Alexa, or Sony and get it to look like an iPhone. And we all know that watching something on YouTube is a wonderful judge of resolution. Come one people, either see the king has no clothes on or chose a different profession. This was worse than driving with the brakes on. The only test I saw was a test of my patience and how long we could keep from laughing. If someone truly believes there was science happening I suggest they seriously chose another profession as quickly as possible.

By the way, a test is when things are done scientifically. Where each camera is shot and processed with the oversight and control of the manufacture. And each camera is allowed to be used to the best of its ability. This was Alice in Wonderland taking place at Skywalker. Sorry, but unfortunately that's what happened. I hope people don't take this stupidity seriously and they question what they are looking at. I apologize if I'm hurting anyone's feelings but I have to be honest about what we saw at Skywalker. What it proved was that it's easy to screw things up to the point of making everything look terrible. If you like what you see and believe it to be a test then I suggest you shoot your next project using your iPhone. Good luck.

...

Mr. Kenny,

Let me start off by saying that I believe there is a bias (sometimes intentional and sometimes not) against Red by many in the industry. I heard a respected camera supplier say last year, "What do you call an Alexa? A Red that works!" That's utter nonsense.

Red's offices were broken into, one of the first Epics was stolen from its owner, and Red's official and Jim Jannard's personal emails have been hacked.

I also believe that no one does a test like the Great Camera Shootout to gain no benefit from it. To be blunt, it helps Zacuto to make the GH2's of the world look good.

But all that said, most of the camera tests that I've seen have been pretty horrible. I remember seeing the F65 presentation by Sony at the DGA. While "The Arrival" looked very good, the rest of the footage looked awful, with locations and actions that appeared rather absurd. But when listening to the filmmakers speak, you understood why they did what they did. Even if it was odd listening to someone describe deep shadows (that in fact looked washed out) and rich greens (that were rather sickly).

I imagine you are familiar with the diner footage shot by Curtis Clark, ASC to test the F35. Those tests also look like they're from "Happy Days." And the F9000PL test footage that Michael Goi, ASC shot looked pretty hokey as well. (I will say that your 9000PL footage shot on the Santa Monica pier looks very wonderful.)

But for many of these tests, there were reasons why the shots were done. The F35's diner setting has a controlled but wide dynamic range, which apparently was also designed into the Zacuto set. Michael Goi chose a blue shirt with a fine texture to test the 9000PL's blue channel resolution in lowlight. I have to believe that similar decisions were made in the Zacuto shootout to incorporate certain elements into their shots.

I do think that the methodology for the Zacuto test is absurd b/c the cameras are but one variable. But I also believe that more thought was put into what was done than you're giving credit for.

That said, I appreciate your frankness. It's refreshing. And I do love the 9000 footage you've shot !

 

[Emanuel A.]

Series' 1st episode is already up and now online since a few hours ago:

http://www.zacuto.com/shootout-revenge-2012/revenge-great-camera-shootout-part-one

2nd part comes on July 15th, the 3rd one a month later.

Here are frames coming from the grabs:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Byy1CMO9ZfmrOS1HQlB6eUNxaFE/edit?pli=1

Oh well, they ask to not post spoilers but what the hell... who gives a damn on here?! This is reduser, after all So, who knows the key, please feel free to not refrain to post ;-)


<PS:> There's some hassle with replicated posts when the usage of a certain software (Jaksta) used to extract the embedded video from Zacuto's page, as posted here actually, therefore, the posts duplicated (already solved in any case).

 

[Peter Moretti]

I believe the GH2 DP's gave a very good perspective on the camera. They explained that they had to work quite hard at adjusting the lighting to get it to fall within the camera's comparatively narrow dynamic range.

So is a $600 camera truly cheap if you need considerably more crew, lights and time to get it to compare to a camera many thousands of dollars more? Also, in some situations you simply won't be able to relight.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Series' 1st episode is already up and now online since a few hours ago:
http://www.zacuto.com/shootout-revenge-2012/revenge-great-camera-shootout-part-one

hmmm ... general tone seemed more like a suicide prevention documentary ... what was that music doing ... very weird.

 

[jimhare]

So is a $600 camera truly cheap if you need considerably more crew, lights and time to get it to compare to a camera many thousands of dollars more? Also, in some situations you simply won't be able to relight.

Exactly what I was thinking! If you have $200,000 of infrastructure, a crew of 10 and advanced post production, why wouldn't you at LEAST use a Scarlet if not an Epic? Makes no sense to go that far, spend that much and shoot on a DSLR. Very confusing.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Yeah it's odd is that if you have that big a crew, you will probably be able to make the GH2 look good. But if you're w/ no crew trying to steal a shot somewhere, then an Epic or Scarlet is going to serve you best.

 

[Paul Watt]

Watching the shootout, it was almost impossible to compare the cameras. The exposure from camera to camera was all over the place, as was the lighting. Pretty tough to watch over the web with any discernable eye too. The GH2 guys were a nice addition to the wise elders. The GH2 is such a sick camera for the price, but it has huge issues that don't show up on this test, like rolling shutter, 8 bit, and really bad dynamic range (explained somewhat in the shootout). I love it anyway.
The shootout part one was entertaining to watch, but I'm not sure the results will have any value one way or the other.

 

[Andrew Porter]

Could someone post which was which, maybe is spoiler tags to respect anyone who wants to wait? Everyone says they picked out the Epic immediately, but I can't see it.