Just Another "What Should I Do/Upgrade" Post...

[BrendanLeahy]

I'll finally add my voice to these threads and request a bit of guidance/insight from members.

I currently own a Scarlet-X and Epic-X. The Scarlet now mainly serves as a backup camera (should the Epic-X ever fail on a job). It's been a huge stress to consider over the past couple of months or so, as I was with everyone else on this "surprise" upgrade price increase (especially during what becomes my slowest point of the year for business).

I currently only have money for one of the following:

Scarlet-X to Epic-X
I feel this would stick me with two awesome top-of-the-line MX bodies, but then I have an additional $6k+ later on to pay when I want to Dragonize them.


Scarlet-X to Scarlet-Dragon OR Epic-X to Epic-Dragon
If I go this route, then I have one camera who's image doesn't quite match the other if I ever do two-cams or need it as a backup.


Gimbal + various accessories
This is just sticking with my current setups, and having something fun to play with, as I miss the old days of glidecam + DSLR shooting. Again, though, I'd have an additional $6k+ later to Dragonize/upgrade the cameras.


Wildcard: Sell Scarlet-X
Alternatively, I could also just join the Scarlet-X throwaway craze happening right now, as the devaluation of MXs is a worrisome thought, which would get the the Epic-Dragon upgrade + gimbal. However, I'd be down a secondary/backup camera, and I'm honestly not sure what I can even get for a Scarlet-X body right now...

 

[Doug Beatty]

Do your clients request Dragon over MX, or have you lost out on a job because you don't own/operate a Dragon?

I'd say if you consider selling your Scarlet that you buddy up with another owner op in the Chicago area and list your Scarlet for what you think you can get. Time isn't on your side, so the possibility of rolling over the funds you get from a sale into Dragonizing your Epic isn't going to be appealing in the short run.

People forget that MX is still a hell of a system, and what you can do with that image speaks for itself.

 

[Adrian Weinbrecht]

Hi Brendan

We own 2x Epics and 2x Scarlets. We currently have our Scarlets getting the dragon upgrade, we would have waited till next year and upgraded all 4 cameras, however the price increase means we are currently upgrading the Scarlets only (at the moment)

The choice was pretty simply really, the Scarlett upgrade gives you a proper 5k camera with some higher usable frame rates. We tend to shoot most of our Red stuff in 5k as it gives us a lot of flexibility in post. In terms of matching the MX and Dragon this would depend heavily on what and how you are shooting. We've already mixed the footage from MX and Dragon and you can get it pretty close for most things when the lighting is controlled, yes theDragon has better skin tones, highlight roll off and Cleaner high ISO with the LLO.

But if you're controlling the lighting and crafting the shots then either camera sensor is great. We've also matched our Reds with cameras from other companies, it just depends on what you are doing.

If I was you, I'd upgrade the Scarlet, as this will give you 2x cameras cable of 5k and better frame rates, there's a big jump between the Scarlet and Epic MX. Whereas a Scarlet Dragon and Epic MX are 2x cameras with fantastic but slightly different capabilities.

Does that help ?

 

[Troy Bakewell]

I'll chime in.

Dump the Scarlet and upgrade the Epic to Dragon now.

My gut says that MX cameras are about to take a hit in value. Sell it now before it does.

It seems to me that the going prices for Scarlets are high enough that you are better off selling it and buying a new Scarlet Dragon outright vs upgrading it

 

[sam karr]

It seems to me that the going prices for Scarlets are high enough that you are better off selling it and buying a new Scarlet Dragon outright vs upgrading it

Well, by checking the market place, it seems a Scarlet with SSD and mount is valued around 6000$ (10150$ new). Scarlet Dragon with SSD and mount is starting at 16700$ new. To get the same price as Red upgrade offer you should sell you camera/SSD/mount at a minimum of 7200$. Even if you make it there will be the ownership transfer fee problem, and all the selling hassle. Even after the 1st I'm not sure it will be more interesting to sell and buy new. I agree that the MX price will probably drop, so you will sell your MX for even less. When you make the upgrade Red is checking everything, and anyway changing almost everything in it. And there will be 90 days of warranty. It's not a bad deal.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

There are people still shooting RED ONE today. I have friends who are still booking jobs with their HPX-170 cameras. If you have managed to find your happy place with EPIC-MX and SCARLET-MX, then stick with them and be happy, because there is no "final upgrade". Just this week it was announced that Panavision 70 lenses now available for rental; ARRI has already anounced it's own 65mm lenses and sensors; you can bet that 2-3 years from now there will be some massive new RED cameras that offers specs well beyond today's EPIC DRAGON. Are you going to chase that, too? Or are you going to say "you know, 4K (or 5K (or 6K))) is quite enough for me and my clients."?

As I'm sure you know, the EPIC is a beast of a camera compared to a SCARLET. The same is true in DRAGON-land. The SCARLET DRAGON delivers a decent compromise of DRAGON's performance (5K @ 8:1 compression), but it's a compromise. The EPIC DRAGON delivers the whole enchilada (6K @ 4:1 compression using mini-mags), plus truly useable high frame rates, HDR-X, etc.

An argument could be made that with the LLO OLPF, a SCARLET DRAGON gives an EPIC-MX a good run for its money in a wide range of shooting circumstances. But it would drive me crazy to have to constantly choose which bundle of compromises to favor for a given job. I don't know about you.

On an absolute basis, EPIC-MX, SCARLET-MX, EPIC DRAGON, and SCARLET DRAGON each offer a certain amount of bang for the buck. Spending any bucks above and beyond the bang you need is a waste. If I had to make this decision, I'd look at what work I'd be trying to do over the next 3-5 years and make sure my bag had everything it needs to win that business. You might already have all you need to satisfy your clients.

On a relative basis, EPIC delivers far more bang-for-the-buck than SCARLET. An EPIC-MX to EPIC DRAGON upgrade similarly delivers far more bang for the buck than SCARLET-MX to SCARLET DRAGON.

My advice is: satisfy first, then optimize.

 

[sam karr]

People are becoming super picky these days ^^ Bundle of compromises with Scarlet Dragon? I don't see any famous feature shot on Red that would not look the same or better on Scarlet dragon. Almost all of them are windowed (heavily for some of them). From many tests, dragon at 7:1 or 8:1 is equivalent to Mx 5:1. I almost never see slow motion in those movies. And 75 fps at 4kws is not ridiculous neither. Yes epic do high framerates but I always see slowmo as something used to hide the lack of point of view or concept in all the footages I see. Maybe this limitation is a good point, it would push people to actually have something to say. And people should not forget that 6k means a lot of power and data to handle.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

I'm a bit curious, then - how many of you own a backup camera?

If you don't, and a client doesn't have the budget to pay for a backup, what do you do theb? What happens if one of these Red cam failures happen, and the nearest rental is hours or hundreds of miles away?

 

[Michael Tiemann]

People are becoming super picky these days ^^ Bundle of compromises with Scarlet Dragon? I don't see any famous feature shot on Red that would not look the same or better on Scarlet dragon. Almost all of them are windowed (heavily for some of them). From many tests, dragon at 7:1 or 8:1 is equivalent to Mx 5:1. I almost never see slow motion in those movies. And 75 fps at 4kws is not ridiculous neither. Yes epic do high framerates but I always see slowmo as something used to hide the lack of point of view or concept in all the footages I see. Maybe this limitation is a good point, it would push people to actually have something to say. And people should not forget that 6k means a lot of power and data to handle.

All true, which is I why I started by suggesting that perhaps the -MX cameras are all the OP really needs. As to the question of pickiness, nowhere did I say that SCARLET DRAGON is yuck. I merely pointed out that relative to the EPIC DRAGON, it is a compromise. Whether it's a smart compromise or not depends on absolute, not relative needs. I'm glad I have the power of an EPIC DRAGON. And I'm glad I had the choice to get a SCARLET DRAGON as my second camera. If and when it comes time to get a third camera, I'll probably get a second EPIC, rather than a second SCARLET. I like the overkill that EPIC offers.

 

[Mike Quill]

I'm thinking you should sell the backup Scarlet, which seems like it's just sitting on the shelf most of the time. I don't know about you, but my Epic has never failed me, and if it did, I have my 5D3 in my backpack as a worst case scenario. I would rather have one amazing camera than two 'compromised cameras.'

Mike

I'm a bit curious, then - how many of you own a backup camera?

If you don't, and a client doesn't have the budget to pay for a backup, what do you do theb? What happens if one of these Red cam failures happen, and the nearest rental is hours or hundreds of miles away?