Jumping Ship

[Theo Faron]

Without getting into the specifics and starting a riot against myself, what are some good alternatives to the Scarlet to look forward to? I've heard a bit about the Panasonic AF100, but is there anything else interesting that is projected to come out in the next 6 months? What are the pros v. cons to the cameras?

 

[Kaku Ito]

The most important thing on RED cameras is to be able to shoot RAW.

I have graded many things with both RED and other formats, with RED footage, you can adjust so much more with the color balance and the gamma/gain/lift. When other compressed formats are so shallow in the depth of the picture that you are limited to be able to adjust.

 

[Stronz Vanderploeg]

Well if you don't want to start a riot you should have probably chosen a different title for this thread haha. Anyways from what I can tell the AF100 seems like the best bet for a camera with "pro" i/o and haven't really seen much else. Although I hear the codec is it's biggest downfall and the HDSDI out is only 8bit.

The GH2 looks like a nice advancement in the DSLR world but still lacking XLR. I've heard that it won't use line skipping but even then it's still probably H264.

There's also the Nikon D7000 if you're against the 4/3rds format but still has similar issues.

Now that Jim has stated RED is focusing solely on high end pros, I wonder if another company might try and fill the prosumer void if there actually turns out to be one. It sure would be nice to see Sony, Panny, Canon or even Nikon offering something like what Scarlet initially was planned to be:
2K< Resolution
RAW 4:4:4 or even 4:2:2
60< framerates
and proper i/o

^That's the affordable camera I would make if I had the money and know-how because sadly current cameras just aren't cutting it for me. I'm still shooting on my HVX because nothing has really convinced me to move on. I was hoping Scarlet would be that camera and it probably still will be. I'm just so sick of compromises like H264, jello, line-skipping, moire, etc. that really ruin images.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Without getting into the specifics and starting a riot against myself, what are some good alternatives to the Scarlet to look forward to? I've heard a bit about the Panasonic AF100, but is there anything else interesting that is projected to come out in the next 6 months? What are the pros v. cons to the cameras?

Well, what exactly are you doing with the camera?

 

[Jim Retar]

Ikonoshop, Drama and Sumix seem the main alternatives in the 2/3" realm.

Ikonoshop looks a very nice piece of kit and they say they will start selling limited cameras this year. Such a sleek and usable design... good specs too.

 

[Ethan Cooper]

Ikonoshop, Drama and Sumix seem the main alternatives in the 2/3" realm.

Ikonoshop looks a very nice piece of kit and they say they will start selling limited cameras this year. Such a sleek and usable design... good specs too.

Really? I mean really? Guys, the Ikonskop is $9,512.42 USD. I'm pretty darn sure you could put together a 2/3 Scarlet for that much $$ so what's the need to jump ship?

I also have a bone to pick with the following statement:

Now that Jim has stated RED is focusing solely on high end pros...

High end pro's? Have you looked at the proposed prices of the camera systems? They're still in the low/mid range 'pro' range. The only way you can perceive them as being 'high end' prices is if you've only priced & bought prosumer type cameras. Traditionally, 'professional' cameras have always started in the $20,000 range, 'high end' usually didn't start till around $60,000 or so.

How incredibly quickly we lose perspective of what this industry cost not very long ago at all.

Yes, Red's new identity apparently dashes the dreams of guys who only have $5000 or so to spend but they've decided to focus on top of the line products. At this moment in time I'm now in the group of people who can't buy a Scarlet outright with the cash I have on hand but I've got no leg to stand on to complain about it. Red has never owed me a camera that out performs all it's competitors for less $$ than an EX1. You can't walk into a Mercedes dealership & demand to pay Kia prices.

 

[Mark Phelan]

To "Jump Ship" assumes one must be on board to begin with. If you have not purchased a RED camera, you are wanting to board the ship and therefore are unable to jump. You cannot leave if you have yet to arrive. You are waiting for Godot. Get a life in the meantime and when your ship comes in, then you can board, and turnaround to jump if you like. But don't jump before you board. It looks silly and sounds preposterous.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

I don't see a good alternative, at least not if want to be able to do what the Scarlet can do (RAW, 3K, 120fps).

AF100 is clearly the best bet, despite AVCHD and no slow mo. DSLRs have their whole host of issues, and the VG10 is not much of an improvement. Ikonoskop does look pretty nice -- but its quite a bit pricier and still 1080p. And the prosumer camcorders (HVX, EX1, etc) are starting to look like dinosaurs. So unless Canon manages to come out with their own competitor to the AF100 in the near future, I'd say Panasonic and RED will own that price range for the next year or so.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Without getting into the specifics and starting a riot against myself, what are some good alternatives to the Scarlet to look forward to? I've heard a bit about the Panasonic AF100, but is there anything else interesting that is projected to come out in the next 6 months? What are the pros v. cons to the cameras?

I'd say you're just f*#ked. You'll have to find a new line of work. :willy_nilly:

 

[Thomas Church]

Sony is supposedly releasing an S35 camcorder before NAB 2011.

Hopefully they'll be smart enough and announce its full features before the AF100 hits.

But I'd say it will probably be more expensive.

Personally, I have decided to skip Scarlet 2/3 altogether and only get a Scarlet S35.

I'm going to get used to working with a large sensor by using the AF100, and it will probably be more than enough for the advertising, documentary, corporate and SD video production world.

I'm planning to shoot my first feature next year, hopefully RED will be able to come out with Scarlet S35 at least until June or July.

Though to be honest, when RED says "expect change" they should mean "expect complete, radical changes, including possible cancellation"

 

[Ian B. Johnson]

Seems like the AF100 is the closest competitor in the Scarlet pricerange (at least before its abandonment as an entry system). I've never been a fan of Canon's video systems (often poor codecs, menu layouts, and lens mechanics) so I personally won't be waiting for a response from them. Sony just announced an un-priced and un-spec'd 35mm sensor size cam, that seems to compete with the AF100 in functionality. Might want to keep tabs on that as well.

Unfortunately the majors have been slow to respond to the Scarlet so "comparable" cameras don't exist. But keep in mind that at this point as far as the consumer is concerned, Scarlet is no more than a PDF with an impressive feature list. Come December, the AF100 will be the leader of the pack (in the sub $6k bracket), as Scarlet still won't be out.

Terry- please keep it civilized and pertinent. I may not be a mod, but I can recognize when a post contributes nothing but troll bait to a forum.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

For the highest quality work you have only two choices currently available, Red One or Alexa. Red is a terrific camera, affordable, but not the best choice for many jobs; better to think of it as a big 35MM film camera with all the demands that entails.

Dropping down a tier, the Panasonic AG-AF100 solves almost all the problems of current DSLR cameras, plus it's cheap, under 5K. Slap on a PL adapter and you're off to the races. I don't know of anything else on the horizon in the large-sensor category that can compete.

While Scarlet promises to be a great camera, it's not available now and Red's universal disclaimer, "Everything subject to change, count on it," means just what it says. Scarlet could appear tomorrow, or never, although "never" is probably the outside limit of "everything changes."

My suggestion, and personal kit, is Red One, Epic when it arrives, for my highest end work, and the Panasonic 100 for everything else. I'll probably retire the VariCam and use my 5DMkII only for my stills work.

The Panasonic 100 is so cheap, you can probably use it until a Scarlet that suits you comes out, and sell your 100 at that time with a relatively low cost of ownership.

I do think that the 100 is going to be a very good camera for many jobs and the next version will be even better; at such a low price, I think of it as an expendable item.

Seems logical to me and it's where I'm going, at least until things change!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Thomas Church]

I think Panasonic is really gonna hit a home run with the AF100.

The only thing I'm worried is how good the image quality is gonna be when using the HD-SDI out.

If Panny somehow could make it 4:2:2: 10 bit I think it would be enough to shoot a feature film.

If it isn't good enough for the big screen I'll still use it for everything else but I'll keep praying RED comes out with Scarlet S35 as soon as possible.

To me Scarlet 2/3 is dead. Hopefully all the Epic buyers asking Jim to scrap Scarlet S35 won't get their way.

 

[Jim Retar]

Really? I mean really? Guys, the Ikonskop is $9,512.42 USD. I'm pretty darn sure you could put together a 2/3 Scarlet for that much $$ so what's the need to jump ship?

Well... if they start shipping this month.... Price will be less relevant, if you need to start shooting. Unfortunately, you can't make a film using a printed spec sheet :wink5:

Don't forget it comes with a built in EVF, (propriety) SSD slot, HD-SDI out and records 240mb/s uncompressed RAW. All in all, it is probably a little cheaper than a similary spec'd Scarlet 2/3" cinema... but obviously less feature packed.

But the OP asked for alternatives... not like for like.

 

[CJ Roy]

Shoot whatever you can on anything you can. Don't wait for any technology that may or may not be here in the near future. Otherwise you'll always be waiting.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Personally, I have decided to skip Scarlet 2/3 altogether and only get a Scarlet S35.

. . . [H]opefully RED will be able to come out with Scarlet S35 at least until June or July.

With any luck, you may get your wish, but I wouldn't count on it. Red has admittedly been bad at meeting announced deadlines. Scarlet has been delayed several times. Most recently it was supposed to be released by the end of this year, but that now appears problematic in the face of the delay necessitated by the addition of HDRx (I hope I'm wrong). How likely is it that a camera that Red hasn't mentioned much -- or, within the past year, given a tentative release date -- will be released only a few months after 3K Scarlet? Of course, maybe the experience Red gains implementing HDRx on Epic and 3K Scarlet will make completing S35 easier, resulting in its rapid release. Who knows? It just seems that they have a their hands full for the foreseeable future with Epic and 3K Scarlet.

 

[C Mayer]

LOL! In order to jump ship, you first need to have a ship to jump from! It's been how long about the promised Scarlet?

We all know what a RED (that exists) can do. The thing is that the Scarlet does not exist, and maybe never will. So why not jump ON a ship and get shooting with whatever, a 5d, a AF-100 when released, anything!

 

[Aaron Newsome]

For those of you who think you can't shoot a feature for the big screen with 8bit 4:2:2, this is flawed thinking. I've just shot my THIRD feature using a Convergent Designs XDR (also 8bit 4:2:2 like the AF100). I've seen the images projected at a proper theater and the images look superb.

Don't count out the AF100 simply because it's "just 8bit 4:2:2". With proper post and color, footage acquired with 8bit 4:2:2 can look very good.

 

[Elan Gunos]

Without getting into the specifics and starting a riot against myself, what are some good alternatives to the Scarlet to look forward to? I've heard a bit about the Panasonic AF100, but is there anything else interesting that is projected to come out in the next 6 months? What are the pros v. cons to the cameras?

I painfully get by with the 7D and 5D, but that's because the line of work I do is mostly commercial/corporate work that's usually destined for laptops--not television or theater. It records at 1080p, but the codec resolves roughly around 960 x 540 which is perfect for the web.

Anything higher and I'd go with the EX3 + NanoFlash, or rent an HDX900 or Red.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

Terry- please keep it civilized and pertinent. I may not be a mod, but I can recognize when a post contributes nothing but troll bait to a forum.

It's a joke. And not aimed at or meant for you. Sorry you were offended.

And I'll stand on my record of contribution and engagement in the forum. Have a good one.