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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

JIM, GRAB A BEER & LETS TALK...

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Terry VerHaar said:
Has everyone forgotten the tsunami and the devastating effect it had on the supply chain. Jim may be a powerful business tycoon but he's not God.
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Is a Tsunami still happening in Japan? Will there a EPIC-M Dragon program... skip the line and get yours first if you pay more?
 
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Originally Posted by Michael Millichamp
Being a red fanboy is the worst.

Terry VerHaar said:
Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment. :-)
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Sigh. Yup. ...I was right.
 
Andrae Palmer said:
...Will there a EPIC-M Dragon program... skip the line and get yours first if you pay more?
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Your guess is as good as mine but don't forget the "M" is also hand machined which is probably why someone would choose it now, over the X. The tsunami wouldn't be the issue this time (unless we have another one).
 
My business my gamble, that goes from assignment to equipment as far as I'm concerned. How many F900's do you see now? 100k, Varicam 65k both no lens included. I learned my lessons. I got tired of buying cameras then have the go extinct. I see the upgrade path and still keeping the shell/body as the biggest plus. I bought low into RED seeing 4k in the future but you know the future always changes. Stay with your plan. Keep making money.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Your guess is as good as mine but don't forget the "M" is also hand machined which is probably why someone would choose it now, over the X. The tsunami wouldn't be the issue this time (unless we have another one).
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Hand machined? Like with a file and a hammer?? Or you mean it was machined with the same machines china has but in america?? It doesn't matter to me. I slept it off. Im bummed but Im sure I will still upgrade. only it feels like putting money into a vehical that isn't worth it anymore if that makes sense.
 
Bryan Moore said:
Hand machined? Like with a file and a hammer?? Or you mean it was machined with the same machines china has but in america?? It doesn't matter to me. I slept it off. Im bummed but Im sure I will still upgrade. only it feels like putting money into a vehical that isn't worth it anymore if that makes sense.
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Among the many things I am NOT, is a manufacturing expert. But RED did make a point of this and, as I understand it, the M body is, indeed, hand-machined as in a guy standing in front of a milling machine. The bodies of the Xs are cast. I am sure someone will correct me if I got the details wrong. :-)
 
What I don't get is why it is so hard for many people - mostly non Epic owners from what I gather - to understand that such price slashing, while perhaps beneficial to those who haven't yet bought an Epic, can actually hurt some of us smaller independents who don't have deep pockets or huge budgets. I doubt that Peter Jackson will feel the bite, but many of us lesser beings will. So what is the reaction of many here on REDUser when someone like A Fetchko merely mentions the pain? They say "tough beans". So much for warm support and understanding.

Does mentioning that a significant drop in the value of your investment will have a non-negligeable effect on your finances make you a whiner? I don't think so.

I don't think the initial poster was hoping that Jim would keep prices artificially high to protect his market but merely pointing out the effect this huge price reduction will have on his finances as well as the finances of many others including mine. How many of you can afford to be indifferent to the loss of some $15000? I know I can't....
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Among the many things I am NOT, is a manufacturing expert. But RED did make a point of this and, as I understand it, the M body is, indeed, hand-machined as in a guy standing in front of a milling machine. The bodies of the Xs are cast. I am sure someone will correct me if I got the details wrong. :-)
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CNC. Program and walk away. Untill you need to remount it or its done. Not important tho. Regardless. People paid extra for it. I would still think it would be smart to keep the value up on the M.
 
Jean Déraps said:
What I don't get is why it is so hard for many people - mostly non Epic owners from what I gather - to understand that such price slashing, while perhaps beneficial to those who haven't yet bought an Epic, can actually hurt some of us smaller independents who don't have deep pockets or huge budgets. I doubt that Peter Jackson will feel the bite, but many of us lesser beings will. So what is the reaction of many here on REDUser when someone like A Fetchko merely mentions the pain? They say "tough beans". So much for warm support and understanding.

Does mentioning that a significant drop in the value of your investment will have a non-negligeable effect on your finances make you a whiner? I don't think so.

I don't think the initial poster was hoping that Jim would keep prices artificially high to protect his market but merely pointing out the effect this huge price reduction will have on his finances as well as the finances of many others including mine. How many of you can afford to be indifferent to the loss of some $15000? I know I can't....
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As earnestly as I can in response: Personally, I have tried to address my comments not to the emotional reaction but the rational one. People are entitled to FEEL any way they do. I don't mean to sound ironic with that statement - it is self-evident. (I just want to make a distinction). What I have argued against is the case some are trying to make on a rational business level that this is a "bad thing" and RED is "leading the race to the bottom" and all that stuff I consider - again, my opinion, BS. Change is hard and almost always prompts an emotional reaction - from elation for some who are excited about the opportunity to buy an Epic, to fear, anger, anxiety (etc) to those who feel a loss. Feelings are good but not appropriate as a justification for a business decision or a business argument.

So, I sympathize with those who are feeling "bad" but I don't think the business case is very good for bashing RED for making the decisions they have. I doubt that they made this decision lightly and surely not because of Jim or Jarred's emotional state.
 
I think a lot of people are confusing value with price and also ability. The camera you own still makes 100% of the images you imagined. It doesn't make 55% of them. And yes it sucks the price drop came down now and you were not able to take advantage of it but I have a tough time sympathizing with this idea that you have lost $15,000 overnight. (did you intend from the very beginning to buy your camera, use it, charge clients for projects, hold on to the camera for years and then sell it at NEAR your original cost?). I mean did you not think of it to depreciate over time? I'm also seeing a lot of people from Canada complaining. I don't know how your financial system works but I would expect you would have some business deduction for purchase of equipment. Why doesn't anyone discuss that?

EDIT:
I would add that I purchased a Scarlet in July. So I did see the BT Scarlet coming around the corner. And I did not see the reduced prices for Epic coming around the corner. Yes I would have probably saved up more to buy an Epic If I had the chance back then but timing is everything and I'm not upset about it. I needed my Scarlet then which is why I purchased. I just am inspired to work even harder to not upgrade to the Epic and sell my Scarlet but to purchase a second body outright when the time comes.
 
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Bryan Moore said:
CNC. Program and walk away. Untill you need to remount it or its done. Not important tho. Regardless. People paid extra for it. I would still think it would be smart to keep the value up on the M.
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But still a lot more labor intensive that an assembly line cast. That said, for anyone not considering it worth it, they don't buy it. :huh:
 
A.Fetchko said:
I don't feel robbed.

I'm not gonna yell or scream or vent. And I'm not going to hurl vitriol at you. I count you as a friend that finally put 35mm widescreen equivalent filmmaking in my hands and in so doing you gave the industry a kick in the ass so swift its still trying to catch its balance.

Over this beer I just want to paint you a picture from a self-centered user's point of view. And yeah I'm a self-centered user. You created me man... you made me that way. Before you, cameras were the purview of Rental Houses and high-interest business loans... you ushered in an era of owners. Like many here I've spent more money on my camera then I've ever spent on a car - and I like cars - so of course I'm self centered about it. You made me an owner... someone who was now able to afford owning a tool to make cinema, but someone who also now had to bear the financial responsibility of managing that ownership.

I bought into RED because it was the first tool that allowed me to tell the stories I wanted to tell cinematically. I'd slogged through all supposed solutions along the way... Cinelook, XL1, DVX, FilmLook, HVX, HPX, SR3 and all of them were always a compromise. The RED ONE wasn't.... it was a camera I could shoot cinema on. Hell you can even go through Answer-Printing in your underwear now with RAW.

When I bought into stage 3 I was a little more seasoned... I bought into the idea that I was supporting the effort and that I would be one of the first to have an Epic a clear business and creative advantage. Now maybe this was something I inferred or made up. Maybe it was never promised. But I'm not alone. Many of us made this same inference and it was even encouraged here on REDUSER. At any rate this inference on my part was smashed with the release of the Epic M, a prototype that was supposed to only go to a few.... but actually went to many... eroding my Rentals on my RED-ONE but still I wasn't worried because I was in stage 3 I was to get mine soon.

But it wasn't soon... it was a Rental eroding eternity. From the time we all congratulated Ketch on his Epic M, It was over a year before I finally got my hands on an epic of my own. By that time my Red-One Rentals had all but withered and even in the DC Market I was renting Epics from others for jobs while my REDONE sat dormant because its what the client wanted. This is NOT your fault.... its just the way it is. Clients will always want the next best think. Clients will always believe the song and dance before the image.

But now we come to these price reductions... I haven't even had my Epic for 6 months yet. And when I got my epic I had to wait even longer for the accessories to make it functional and yet I was still happy... but this hits hard. Over a beer I'm telling you this hurt. You created me... and I love ya for it, but this hurt. A Pro-Level camera I have not had for more than 5 months just had its value reduced by over 30%. I know you say this is characteristic of electronics, and if we were talking about ipods and laptops I would agree with you... but this is not characteristic of the Pro Camera market. Its unprecedented and it hurts a bit. I waited patiently for a year while everyone else in the world (seemingly - remember you made me ;-) ) got their Epics. Hell I watched scores get their Scarlets before I got my Epic. But now I have had the camera barely 3 and half months (EPIC and ACCESSORIES) and its worth a third less this morning than it was yesterday. Not everybody has had a year and a half with the camera... not everybody was able to readily rent the REDONE to clients no matter how viable and awesome we knew it was.

Jarred said it himself. We the owners allow you to push forward by buying in. I'm still on board, still along for the ride but don't forget the unprecedented responsibility we've taken on to be RED EPIC owners in the rush forward. Their is a cost to moving forward but Owners like us shouldn't be paying for all of it. Yes I've put my Epic to good use in the last few months and the filmmaker in me loves that your pushing forward with zeal but the business owner in me is reeling from a 30% hit on a camera I've only had use of for three and half months and what the influx in cameras this price shift will surely cause will do to the rental market and the prices I can charge.

I still love the camera. I'm still thankful for the kick in the ass you gave the industry. And I don't think I've ever been treated poorly by RED ever. But over a beer I just wanted you to hear why it hurt from an Owner that isn't a studio or a rental house but rather an individual; an Owner you created that has all the responsibilities that comes with that ownership. You created this level of ownership and responsibility. I know you know about the ownership... but I think you forget about the responsibility in your excitement to push forward.

I'm not getting off the ride, and the fact that I'm staying on is why I wanted this to be said.

Hit me up at NAB... I think I owe you a beer.
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You put it better than I ever could. I second this sentiment 100%.

For me this has been a huge wake-up call: Don't buy cameras. I'm not even sure that we will upgrade to Dragon. 6K is just not practical for the computers my clients own, and at 5K I will be using a narrower field of view on that sensor than I do now - plus I really don't think we will have enough rental revenue to re-invest in more gear for a long time. Plus, how long do I have until that upgrade is slashed overnight to 3K, 2K 1K? I can't really trust that anymore.

I would never say "Red sucks" and I am not bashing the company at all - I love their gear and their service. Jim is a great guy as is Jarred. But this "brave new world of change", where an MX is suddenly $4000 (and where I can no longer sell our R1s to pay for a Dragon, for example) - has become one so volatile that renting for the jobs I do will likely mean more money in the bank at the end of the year. I and others will do the same jobs, with the same camera - again this is not an art question, just a question of sensible money investment, based on how many actual shooting days I can (Cien style shooting is a lot fo prep time) do even if I were booked 52 weeks a year.

In the days of early HD - it was the same. Few people owned their own Panny or Sony HD camera - because they depreciated so quickly, you really had to be a busy rental house, or a doco guy shooting almost every day with few prep and meeting days, for it to be a wise investment.

We're heading back to that now, I think. Oh well, we survived then, we'll survive now and into the future.
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment. :-)
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Terry I normally back you in things you say, but being a constant dick is giving the company you love so much a bad name and especially this forum.

There's a reason everyone else hates REDUser, and you are showing them just why they are right.
 
Bryan Moore said:
CNC. Program and walk away. Untill you need to remount it or its done. Not important tho. Regardless. People paid extra for it. I would still think it would be smart to keep the value up on the M.
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we paid extra money for Epic-M thought it was unique hand machined bla bla..After few months it had problems and went back service 2 times :) believe me Ms are not special
 
Having been one of those who paid full retail for an M thinking I knew what the company stood for - I will say I'm rather disappointed that RED is now leading with low prices rather than breakthrough technology. This is a fundamental change in strategy in my view and not something that is sustainable unless you are truly the volume and manufacturing / operations leader. I never saw RED as either - they are a disruptive technology company and have been successful in that approach. I was hoping for Dragon this November 3rd - not a major personal asset devaluation.

If RED believes they can out produce the Japanese / German majors to get their costs below theirs then this will be a very different company going forward. I'm guessing there are maybe 30K RED cameras ever produced. That number has to get into the 100K's to be near the low cost volume game. By comparison Canon has produced 50M EOS bodies and 70M EOS lenses. The classic example of chasing the market based on low prices challenge was Sears lowering prices to compete with WalMart without actually reducing costs through best of class operational efficiencies. WalMart can charge lower prices because they have a whole different cost structure than Sears or JC Penny. RED is no WalMart.

Best of luck to all at RED in this new approach. I am very hopeful they can grow the RED market so Apple, Adobe et all will have to prioritize making their products RED compliant.
 
Jean Déraps said:
What I don't get is why it is so hard for many people - mostly non Epic owners from what I gather - to understand that such price slashing, while perhaps beneficial to those who haven't yet bought an Epic, can actually hurt some of us smaller independents
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Because their experience differs, and principles discovered, defined and suggested are not inside their well established field of awareness, and mind tends to dismiss a suggested notion which considerably differs from own.

In addition, regarding this specific situation, additional well founded subjective positive impressions of a same subject assist the reaction.
 
RED rocks and some folks are just not getting it yet .
Give it time, these boards are filled with folks who have extreme views of everything.
 
You are unfortunately confusing things Terry. I wasn't talking about touchy-feely emotional stuff but rather concrete business stuff. That our investment in equipment is worth many thousands of dollars less overnight *is* a business argument.

And who is bashing RED here? Certainly I'm not and neither is the original poster. This was RED's decision to make, and hell, they can give away their cameras if they want, and my opinion on that is moot since they can do whatever they want. But that still doesn't mean it's good for the "bottom line" (yes this is a business expression) of all those owner/operators who have an investment worth much less today than yesterday. Would you yourself be rejoicing if your house, car, stocks or any other investment had depreciated by many thousands of dollars overnight? i don't see how this is different just because it happens to be a camera...

As I alluded to in my original post, I don't know many people who could put $15000 in a shredder and not wince. I certainly do *not* belong to those happy few. Perhaps you do?



 
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