I've Decoded Jinnitech's "How to" video on Third Party Media

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Won’t happen since the cameras need an update for individual manufacturers. Also I’m thinking about DSMC1 / Red One with dying media. There is no way since „they don’t have dev kits for these cams anymore“. Imagine using better parts than red on their original ssds. I think no one wouldn’t like that.

„RED Approved“ for me is a bit too big in some guys brains. Like Jinni Mags, they where 1:1 the exact ssds that red used. It’s not crazy science to build reliable parts for cameras.

In the early days of the RED One, RED would test and qualify memory cards. We were all running the Lexar 8GB and 16GB cards. RED had their own rebranded Lexar media at the time. And we also had the RED Drive HDDs and the super-expensive, but ultra reliable RED-RAM 128GB SSD. I ran a few of those, even had one go swimming in a pool and I filed an insurance claim, only to have the unit be fully operational again after I had fully dried and cleaned it. RED was open to other media and I was doing my own tests as well. My test results concurred with everything Jarred and others said at the time about other media options falling short. Several of us, not just RED, were eager to test any new 32GB CF card that hit the market... Most all of them would fail any rigorous testing -- I'd say nearly every single one I tested back then didn't truly have 32GB capacity, it was blatant false advertising and they would slow to a crawl as they would fill up and often completely stall out around 24GB of data.

So RED brought us the RED MAG SSD. This is where I think things went "wrong". The RED MAG and subsequent MINI-MAG SSDs were great, but rapidly became a sore spot for users when equivalent, and eventually superior, media options entered the market for less money. They did allow third parties to develop and apply to be licensed/approved for use with the cameras -- KipperTie mags being the only ones I know of that went through the process. It just wasn't economical -- RED's ecosystem wasn't large enough for the SSD makers to actually produce for, meaning that RED and their accessory partners hat to utilize off-the-shelf SSD tech.

RED having their own SSD format, even though the internals were standard off the shelf product, came at significant expense. Not just manufacturing the aluminum housings, but qualifying SSD product for use and then securing production quantities. RED almost assuredly reserved certain minimum quantities at specific pricing. And in the rapidly evolving SSD space, that is dangerous with how fast prices continued to drop. Leaves the door wide open for someone like Jinnitech to come along and offer the same product for a significantly lower price. The RED MAG/MINI-MAG media was still probably the right decision at the time, but couldn't hold up against a rapidly growing market and a tech-savvy user base who saw the commonality of the underlying tech against the backdrop of an industry with almost daily drops in pricing.

I'm glad RED has shifted back to non-proprietary media, this is the correct answer.

I know the DSMC2 product line has ended, but there are LOTS of these cameras in service and they will be for some time to come. I really think RED should, or allow a third party, to produce a DSMC2 CF Express media module. They would definitely sell enough of them to justify the development and production and it would breathe more life into an excellent camera platform. It would probably save them money at this point to produce and offer that module and eliminate MINI-MAG sales.

 

[Mike P.]

I know the DSMC2 product line has ended, but there are LOTS of these cameras in service and they will be for some time to come. I really think RED should, or allow a third party, to produce a DSMC2 CF Express media module. They would definitely sell enough of them to justify the development and production and it would breathe more life into an excellent camera platform. It would probably save them money at this point to produce and offer that module and eliminate MINI-MAG sales.

You mean CFast/CFe module that's also supported by DSMC1, right?

Being that the interface is just SATA passthrough, a simple adapter should work on both cameras. It's the handshaking bs that biffs it. Alas, I don't see RED (Nikon) spending any resources implementing anything like that (a mini-mag-to-CFast/CFe adapter)... They've moved on, and whose to say that Nikon isn't just waiting for all REDs to be EOL so they can do a "Nikon Cine" rebrand or something.

 

[Les Hillis]

I could be wrong, but I just don't think it is actually economically viable to make new media for the discontinued RED camera's.

I'm assuming the 480GB RED MiniMags RED are still selling for the old prices are old 'new' stock from pre-DSMC3 days, so they're not even really making the things any more.

From what I can tell, the limited amounts of Longtake Mags Kippertie are still making only make economic sense because they can charge for 2TB capacity cards, whereas the profit vs. cost ratio per GB isn't viable at lower capacities, and also in part because they have other more lucrative parts of their business that can help off-set the cost of making the Longtake Mags.

So, for someone to actually make a viable profit from selling new media for the old camera's, they'd basically have to be a one-person backyard/garage operation making the mags to order. And even then, upfront equipment, tooling and parts acquisition costs could make the venture a non-starter. The necessarily small-scale of the 'business' also contradicts the basic premise of quality-assured media and greatly reduces the chances of the media being made with RED's permission.

Should also point out that the 'alternative' mags that were being sold for a while, still weren't as cheap as people wanted, and that particular business model was never actually proven to be viable. I wouldn't be surprised to find those things were still being sold under-the-counter or help being given for people to DIY, but again, where does that leave you if you want maximum trust in your media and its ability to safely record and keep the precious footage you want/need to record to it? No thanks.

I like the idea of entirely new media modules using modern cards that are backwards compatible with the old camera's, but that seems like it would just up the stakes even further in terms of the upfront costs and development that would be required.

BTW, taking that one step further and going off on a tangent (similar to the thought mentioned in the previous post), I still struggle to get my head around the fact that you can't buy a new camera with a Dragon/Helium/Monstro sensor in it any more. The images you can get off those sensors is just bullshit, and yet somehow they're just abandoned and relegated to increasing unavailability? RED/Nikon should either make or allow someone else to make new camera's with those sensors, couldn't care less what kind of body they put them in, bare minimum box, mirrorless, whatever. Bonus for making them ridiculously affordable (at least as affordable as some of the 2nd hand ones are going for now).

Having said all that, and getting back on topic, I can't help noticing, this discussion about the legacy media situation has happened yet again with no-one actually approaching RED and asking what their position is regarding the making of new media for their discontinued camera's.

We're all just assuming they wouldn't make new media or media modules or give permission for others to do so, or even help others do so, without knowing the actual facts of the matter.

Again, if you think you can provide a solution to the legacy media affordability/availability problem (that you can actually offer as a product), talk with RED about it.

If they say no or you can't come to an arrangement with them, then so be it. Until then it's all just speculation and assumptions and wishful thinking (not that such things aren't entertaining and not that I don't get sucked into indulging in them myself).

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I could be wrong, but I just don't think it is actually economically viable to make new media for the discontinued RED camera's.

It's not. BUT, new SSD interface modules for the cameras could be economical, thus allowing for use of common media. Or at least viable enough that a passionate group willing to undertake it could break even. The media modules in all of RED's cameras from the RED One onwards, were off-the-shelf components with gate-keeping firmware in the camera and/or on the module itself. The hardware aspect of providing a new media interface to these older cameras is arguably quite simple. But we would need RED's cooperation on camera firmware to allow their operation... Asking a potential customer/user base that would buy the new media modules to hack their camera firmware, would really cut into the already small potential sales. That and even though those cameras are obsoleted, that doesn't mean RED would look favorably on such an endeavor.

I'm assuming the 480GB RED MiniMags RED are still selling for the old prices are old 'new' stock from pre-DSMC3 days, so they're not even really making the things any more.

The 480 and 960 GB were obsoleted. But enough people did complain about the new 1TB being the smallest that RED brought back the 480GB. I think all MINI-MAGs still being sold are a while supplies last sort of thing. I don't believe any are still in production. I still own a 1TB MINI-MAG, it's the only one I have left and I use it occasionally if I'm testing or servicing a camera. But I probably should just sell it as I haven't actually used it in almost a year.

Having said all that, and getting back on topic, I can't help noticing, this discussion about the legacy media situation has happened yet again with no-one actually approaching RED and asking what their position is regarding the making of new media for their discontinued camera's.


We're all just assuming they wouldn't make new media or media modules or give permission for others to do so, or even help others do so, without knowing the actual facts of the matter.

All true, this is an academic circle-jerk. I know I'm just spitballing what-ifs here... It's a project that's within my wheelhouse, but not something I would undertake. But if I (or anyone) were to take this up in a serious capacity, the first step would be to reach out to RED to see if they would cooperate and support the effort. Now if I just wanted to produce new RED-MAG compatible media and have it qualified, they would in fact support that, or at least they were 100% still supportive of that before the Nikon merger. But like you said, KipperTie made it work as part of their overall business model and selling high capacity mags. And RED also seemed to respect that KipperTie offered the larger mags first and didn't trample them. Now that SSD prices have dropped significantly, KipperTie has almost certainly paid off their investment in their 2TB mags and stands to make a reasonable profit off each one sold. Them getting RED approval at the time was risky, but they made it happen and it has probably paid off for them. The 2TB SSDs in their mags can be bought for about $195 each today in 20 lots.

Unauthorized media like Jinnimags never took off, not just because of the unauthorized aspect, but because there really wasn't a way to make them enough cheaper until very recently. All roads still lead to the same Samsung and Micron SSDs RED was using and there was/is no way to purchase them more economically than from places like Amazon or NewEgg unless we started buying full palettes or hundreds (or 1000+) units at a time. Each one needed hands-on installation into a custom fabricated case, flashed with new firmware and hopefully given a proper testing. Sure, those SATA SSDs are a lot cheaper now and RED could fire-sale the remaining MINI-MAG media, but I'm sure the media they have was already produced at a specific price and needs to sell for a certain price point. Also no reason to de-value what is already out there.

 

[Nick Wernham]

I know the DSMC2 product line has ended, but there are LOTS of these cameras in service and they will be for some time to come. I really think RED should, or allow a third party, to produce a DSMC2 CF Express media module. They would definitely sell enough of them to justify the development and production and it would breathe more life into an excellent camera platform. It would probably save them money at this point to produce and offer that module and eliminate MINI-MAG sales.

It's the first time I've posted here in a while, but your idea is an intriguing one, Jeff. I still enjoy shooting on my Epic and my RedMags still work just fine for now over a decade after I took delivery of them, but I know that one day that they will cease to work and it will be a shame. They are great cameras and I hope that I can still use mine for many more years to come.

 

[Zack Birlew]

I want new media just as much as everybody else and as we know from a previous statement by Jarred, the mixed software environments for each camera platform can make things difficult to go back. However, in that sense it isn't much different then going back and remastering an old videogame, just need someone or a group to set up a suitable older PC/Mac or a virtual environment with coding knowledge of each OS platform. Even if the cameras can only recognize original mag sizes (ie. 2TB CFe card in RED One MX only recognizes 128GB), that would be a lifesaver for these older and still awesome cameras.

 

[MCC]

I want new media just as much as everybody else and as we know from a previous statement by Jarred, the mixed software environments for each camera platform can make things difficult to go back. However, in that sense it isn't much different then going back and remastering an old videogame, just need someone or a group to set up a suitable older PC/Mac or a virtual environment with coding knowledge of each OS platform. Even if the cameras can only recognize original mag sizes (ie. 2TB CFe card in RED One MX only recognizes 128GB), that would be a lifesaver for these older and still awesome cameras.

Just wait a bit. Primary focus for me is DSMC2. But I know how media for R1 works, just wait a bit for that. Maybe in Q4 2024.

 

[austinthetaco]

Definitely excited for an update on the process. Hell, I'd even support a process to modify the dsmc2 firmware to kill the ssd check altogether.

 

[MCC]

Definitely excited for an update on the process. Hell, I'd even support a process to modify the dsmc2 firmware to kill the ssd check altogether.

Without me, I don’t wanna flex but I’ve got almost any mini mag running and working perfectly. 960gb V3, 480gb V1, 512gb etc.

 

[austinthetaco]

Without me, I don’t wanna flex but I’ve got almost any mini mag running and working perfectly. 960gb V3, 480gb V1, 512gb etc.

will you be sharing the process soon?

 

[MCC]

will you be sharing the process soon?

If I would do that you couldn’t repeat that process. Just wait a bit, everything is in the making.

 

[Isaac Cannon]

will you be sharing the process soon?

He's already discussed this and he claims to already have mags working and other third party drives compatible but he's not going to share the process, and just going to sell them for a cheaper price, exclaiming that it's a good deal even though it's still way over priced

 

[MCC]

He's already discussed this and he claims to already have mags working and other third party drives compatible but he's not going to share the process, and just going to sell them for a cheaper price, exclaiming that it's a good deal even though it's still way over priced

Bro you have no clue how mini mags, ssds in general and „comparability“ works. I tried ->40<- and NONE worked. To share a bit of knowledge: Have you never wondered why formatting a mini mags is so stupid fast? Because it won’t format. When you record it will overrides the existing data. At this point ANY consumer grade ssd will die. Even for 960gb V3 a „normal“ industry ssd with the fastest nand won’t work.

 

[MCC]

You can choose between:
1: Anyone will try with the tutorial for like 24-100h that the own mini mag even read but then they will find themselves with almost instant recording errors
2: get a good solution with some nice stuff like USB-C(DSMC2) for DSMC2/1/R1 and don’t see old cams die without media.

It’s not about making profit, it’s the ONLY way.

 

[Isaac Cannon]

Bro you have no clue how mini mags, ssds in general and „comparability“ works. I tried ->40<- and NONE worked. To share a bit of knowledge: Have you never wondered why formatting a mini mags is so stupid fast? Because it won’t format. When you record it will overrides the existing data. At this point ANY consumer grade ssd will die. Even for 960gb V3 a „normal“ industry ssd with the fastest nand won’t work.

I didn't claim to know how mini mags work. I don't think you read the message you responded to. I claimed that instead of the helping the overall cause of getting information about unlocking proprietary media out to other people, you are going down the same route as jinnimag, taking advantage of other people's lack of knowledge

 

[MCC]

I didn't claim to know how mini mags work. I don't think you read the message you responded to. I claimed that instead of the helping the overall cause of getting information about unlocking proprietary media out to other people, you are going down the same route as jinnimag, taking advantage of other people's lack of knowledge

to bring this to an end:

Even an complete instruction how to do it no one can do it. It’s like getting an instruction to repair the timing chain on Bugattis V16 8.3L engine. Just not suitable for a reliable process.

If someone from red is reading this:

As I saw your 960gb V3 msata I was blown away! I never saw anything like that beast. It’s like hearing jinnis „of the shelf consumer grade ssd“ and spitting that drive in the ring!

 

[MCC]

@Isaac Cannon: (deleted message?)
Because almost any modern ssds doesn’t have the requirements to be used.

Impossible via Hardware and Software

Would it be so easy I would make an tutorial (that was my first idea) but it isn’t. Like I said if you want R1, DSMC1/2 Media this is the only suitable way sadly.

(Already tested on DSMC1 and 2).

 

[Isaac Cannon]

to bring this to an end:

Even an complete instruction how to do it no one can do it. It’s like getting an instruction to repair the timing chain on Bugattis V16 8.3L engine. Just not suitable for a reliable process.

If someone from red is reading this:

As I saw your 960gb V3 msata I was blown away! I never saw anything like that beast. It’s like hearing jinnis „of the shelf consumer grade ssd“ and spitting that drive in the ring!

Message:
Okay let's do this in car terms:

The Bugattis v16 engine as listed SHOULD be a stronger engine than let's say a weak Honda engine, BECAUSE it's a Bugatti engine. But the thing is, Bugatti is also actually using just regular older weak Honda engines and listing them to output more horse power and more reliable. And due to these lies, Bugatti can limit what engines you can put in their cars so you have to buy their Bugatti branded Honda engines to run the car


Back to camera terms:

Answer me this, why can't a modern SSD match the data rate that the R1 writes to a HARD DRIVE like the red drive?

It's not physically possible for a 17 year old hard drive to outperform a modern SSD


If it's possible to use third party media for the R1, then it's possible to use it for every other red camera. I would assume they just copy and paste the same systems.

So if modern SSDs don't meet the requirements to beat a hard drive, please list those requirements

 

[MCC]

maybe something funny to la

Message:
Okay let's do this in car terms:

The Bugattis v16 engine as listed SHOULD be a stronger engine than let's say a weak Honda engine, BECAUSE it's a Bugatti engine. But the thing is, Bugatti is also actually using just regular older weak Honda engines and listing them to output more horse power and more reliable. And due to these lies, Bugatti can limit what engines you can put in their cars so you have to buy their Bugatti branded Honda engines to run the car


Back to camera terms:

Answer me this, why can't a modern SSD match the data rate that the R1 writes to a HARD DRIVE like the red drive?

It's not physically possible for a 17 year old hard drive to outperform a modern SSD


If it's possible to use third party media for the R1, then it's possible to use it for every other red camera. I would assume they just copy and paste the same systems.

So if modern SSDs don't meet the requirements to beat a hard drive, please list those requirements

Yes sure a modern SSD will outperform an old RED HDD but that’s not the point. If speed is the only thing that matters, then I would be happy haha. No, every model uses different DRM.

I can’t list them because I don’t know all of them and also can’t because I don’t want. + it doesn’t matter, you won’t find any documentation etc. of the most stuff. It’s harder as you think. I just got it via month of try and error + some intelligence.

 

[MCC]

Red never used bad drives. Jinni mentioned a Samsung SSD. Yeah it’s not a regular one. Some hard to find OEM ssd which is stupid fast.