It's time to STOP bitching!

[David Battistella]

You know,

Thinking back about three years I have to say that m big cine choices were an HVX-200 or some P2 camera or an HDV camera that claimed to shoot cine style images. Maybe I could have saved up real good for a SONY or a VARICAM, so I could shoot 60FPS on B4 mount glass (where would that effing investment be today).

Then RED enters and gives people what we really had been asking for. A RAW CINE style camera that captures motion and up to 120fps.

When I went with RED I made it my business to understand everything there is to know about this camera (as any craftsman should) on both sides of the lens and all the way through post production. Part of that means going through some growing pains and part of that means understanding that we are part of a larger experiment, one that is rooted in the very idea of advancing the cause of high quality digital image making.

Now I might agree that P2 might be a slightly less painful workflow, but I have to say that if I put any image from my RED along side any P2 footage I have ever captured, I AM REALLY FUCKING GLAD I DECIDED TO CAPTURE EVERYTHING IN REDCOE RAW INSTEAD OF P2 over the past two years.

RED has provided everyone with any possible way to get footage from their REDCODE RAW system to STILL, QUICKTIME, DPX, FILM, or any other finishing medium.

To complain about the workflow is a complaint against the very logic of how the system is set up. RAW will always requie RAW processing tools, ask any photographer and they can attest to that.

People finish RED footage EVERY DAY in EVERY part of the world.

I personally would not have it any other way. RED provided me with a FREE tool, REDCINE-X, the provided third parties with an SDK (CLIPFINDER) and they have put out updates to all Apple products, AVID and ADOBE.

Just what the would anyone else have them do, build a REDROCKET into the camera (which they are essentially doing in the proxy modules).

Frankly, if workflow is not your thing or you want a 7d or 5D style shoot, edit thing then RED is the wrong tool for you.

If you want a professional imaging tool, with a professional workflow to extract the best possible images then, I believe, that is what RED is founded and built on. RED is a professional Digital Cinema company, that means RAW is the cornerstone of what they do and how they capture images.

Three years ago you needed a refridgerator size hard drive to capture uncompressed 4K and they came up with this technology called REDCODE RAW to allow you to have it on a small raid drive or a CF card. If you forget these basic principles then you miss the entire point of RED.

They sure do take a lot of crap around here, but let's not forget that a mere two years ago, other manufacturers didn't really give a pinch of a shit about this stuff until this company had the balls and financial backing to actually produce something. If they did, they certainly were not interesting in bringing it to the masses, by pricing it incredibly fairly and making it available to all.

Sorry for my rant, but I feel we need to be reminded sometimes that we are pretty lucky to have a dedicated team behind this product who, despite having to wade through shit storm after shit storm, continue to try to make even better products.

I don't care about the workflow, I care about the images and RED has delivered on that 14 times the size of some shitty P2 camera and with all the DOF that belong to an elite few (because of cost) for far to long.

David

 

[christopher witzke]

I concur completely.

I don't care if I have to let my footage render all night.... It's so worth it for what the results you get.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Hmmm.

I do like to remember that RED kicks ass.

I also like to remember that RED isn't perfect, and the one place it often hurts is workflow.

Its good that you don't care about the complications.

I do care.

I want a better workflow experience. If I need to deliver crappy RGB video files quickly I need a way to do that. I would really like to be able to hand a client a hard drive at the end of a short shoot and walk away to cash my check.

That's pretty close to impossible with RED now.

I'd like to be able to wander into any post house and drop my RED Drive on an editors desk, and have the process be well supported on whatever NLE they are using, and for the processing of RED footage to be real time or faster on common hardware.

That's also pretty close to impossible now.

I want to hand a tech/post ignorant producer a drive and have them be able to play it back on their fairly generic computer smoothly at 1080p or better from 4K.

Again, pretty close to impossible.

None of that is RED's fault, except in so far as they brought this technology to market.

Am I thankful for what RED has made possible? Sure.

Do I want more? Absolutely.

Prognosticating for a second, my main desire is for a fast RGB codec I can hand over to most post houses. In other words RED's take on Alexa's recording of ProRes files.

I don't think RED will disappoint me.

Either RED will deliver their own recording module for a similar solution, or the EPIC and Scarlet outputs will be full quality debayer 1080p 10 bit 4:4:4 3G HD-SDI. and I can record them on whatever 3rd party gadget I choose.

There is a good chance knowing RED that it will be as much of both of those options as they can deliver.

(I actually think EPIC will meet the specs above, but scarlet will be 1/2 quality debayer, 10 bit 4:2:2 and that we will see a RED module delivering easy to use video files.)

Either way I, and people like me, will get what I need to do my job better.

You see it as complaining.

I see it as thinking out-loud about what I need in a place where RED and their partners can read it for themselves and learn what users need so they can develop and deliver the right products with the right features.

So, I am thankful for what RED has already done. I look forward to their future. I will keep looking for more until my toolset lets me deliver in all the ways I need to deliver to all the different sorts of clients I need to work with to make a living. (Or as is currently the case not quite make a living.)

I sincerely hope there is room for both our viewpoints.

Regards

 

[David Battistella]

I sincerely hope there is room for both our viewpoints.

Regards

Totally.

I also think that there has to be a reset once in a while.

From the first experience with RED i never thought it was going to be a "fast turnaround machine" just as film is not this way.

I thought of it as a digital film workflow because that is what it is. They have also introduced the RedRocket for more demanding production enviroments, but actaully, I think their workflow is very well thought out.

It's not the instantaneousnes of video, but it's not meant to be that.

I'm pretty sure a Prores proxy module will do all of what you need. The thing is, what camera are you comparing it to when it comes to workflow? The yet to be release ALEXA, the GENISIS, the VIPER, D21 and ARRIRAW, SI2K, or a HDCAM SR FF35, F900, VARICAM?

What makes all of these workflows "easy" compared to RED. A CF card reader and a computer hard drive and I am in business, not an HDCAM deck or a speicialized tape deck?

See, when I look at the lanscape vs. image quality arguement then I can't really complain to much about the RED workflow.

David


David


David

 

[christopher witzke]

You can always deliver your footage on a hardrive as RAW and include copies of reds software on the hardrive as well.....

Or... Even just the QT plugin so they can work from proxies after you dial in your Preset and apply that to your proxies from red alert or redcinex

I personally feel that the Red is worth the respect to take a few days for light color and prores444 exports. Why is the world in such a hurry? Can't the client and crew go take some time and spend it with their loved ones? We're only talking about an overnight render....

 

[David Rasberry]

Bang on David.
Work flow with RAW may have been an issue in Red's earlier days, but it certainly is much less of one now when there are several NLE's that will let you edit it native without encoding until you go to a release format.
By the time Epic and Scarlet are released it should be pretty much moot, as the new ones will let you output clean encoded video to an external recorder if needed.

 

[Phil Bates]

I love what RED has done for my creative process. Working with RAW is like having a film negative that I can telecine on the desktop, especially with the amazing MX upgrade. Render times are a minor annoyance barely worth mentioning. I can't say enough thanks to RED and crew.

I finally sold my F900R and am embracing the future.

Extremely Grateful,
Phil

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

What makes all of these workflows "easy" compared to RED. A CF card reader and a computer hard drive and I am in business, not an HDCAM deck or a speicialized tape deck?

See, when I look at the lanscape vs. image quality arguement then I can't really complain to much about the RED workflow.

What you say is completely fine for a film workflow. There image quality is paramount, and time will be taken to craft the image.

And you are right, a ProRes output module will do everything I need. If the HD-SDI output of the EPIC and Scarlet delivers real high quality SDI, then I can even use a 3rd party solution and deliver what I need to deliver.

Let me be a bit more specific: I need fast delivery on cheap media and the ability to play back and edit in 1080p on most NLE systems.

If I have a client that requires me to turn media over at the end of the shoot... RED is useless.

The ideal here is to hand over some HDCAM tapes... but handing over a hard drive with digital media is increasingly attractive as prices plummet on drives.

If I have to go direct to edit with a short turnaround to air... RED is useless. The render time is murder.

What if I have to edit in the field? Ha!

The best I can manage is a 720p output to a KiPro or NanoFlash. That 720p output is of dubious quality. I can turn over a hard drive and I can do direct to edit, and even edit in real time on a laptop in the field... but 720p ProRes from the SDI on the RED is a travesty compared to what a rendered 720p full debayer would look like.

For all those applications an EX1 completely smokes a RED. Recording both to an external recorder, the EX1 gives me better resolution and higher picture quality. An HPX3700 is a whole other level and smokes the EX1- the onboard recorder delivers 10 bit 4:2:2, and an outboard recorder can deliver 4:4:4.

What I want is to be able to deliver to all my different clients with a RED, in all the different production environments.

As I wrote above, I think EPIC and Scarlet will address a lot of these shortcomings and let me deliver to more clients with the same camera.

Then instead of renting a pile of ENG cameras, I can invest in more RED lenses and support gear.

Its a lot of words, dedicated to what is really a problem whose interime solution is already probably in the pipeline and whose proper solution (REDCODE as your native editing codec) is coming due to the march of technology.

 

[James Stone]

Hmmm.

I do like to remember that RED kicks ass.

I also like to remember that RED isn't perfect, and the one place it often hurts is workflow.

Its good that you don't care about the complications.

I do care.

I want a better workflow experience. If I need to deliver crappy RGB video files quickly I need a way to do that. I would really like to be able to hand a client a hard drive at the end of a short shoot and walk away to cash my check.

That's pretty close to impossible with RED now.

I'd like to be able to wander into any post house and drop my RED Drive on an editors desk, and have the process be well supported on whatever NLE they are using, and for the processing of RED footage to be real time or faster on common hardware.

That's also pretty close to impossible now.

I want to hand a tech/post ignorant producer a drive and have them be able to play it back on their fairly generic computer smoothly at 1080p or better from 4K.

Again, pretty close to impossible.

None of that is RED's fault, except in so far as they brought this technology to market.

Am I thankful for what RED has made possible? Sure.

Do I want more? Absolutely.

Prognosticating for a second, my main desire is for a fast RGB codec I can hand over to most post houses. In other words RED's take on Alexa's recording of ProRes files.

I don't think RED will disappoint me.

Either RED will deliver their own recording module for a similar solution, or the EPIC and Scarlet outputs will be full quality debayer 1080p 10 bit 4:4:4 3G HD-SDI. and I can record them on whatever 3rd party gadget I choose.

There is a good chance knowing RED that it will be as much of both of those options as they can deliver.

(I actually think EPIC will meet the specs above, but scarlet will be 1/2 quality debayer, 10 bit 4:2:2 and that we will see a RED module delivering easy to use video files.)

Either way I, and people like me, will get what I need to do my job better.

You see it as complaining.

I see it as thinking out-loud about what I need in a place where RED and their partners can read it for themselves and learn what users need so they can develop and deliver the right products with the right features.

So, I am thankful for what RED has already done. I look forward to their future. I will keep looking for more until my toolset lets me deliver in all the ways I need to deliver to all the different sorts of clients I need to work with to make a living. (Or as is currently the case not quite make a living.)

I sincerely hope there is room for both our viewpoints.

Regards

Most honest and unbiased!
What pains me is, even a honest observation is construed by the R1 die hard fans as negative criticism.

 

[David Battistella]

Most honest and unbiased!
What pains me is, even a honest observation is construed by the R1 die hard fans as negative criticism.

For the record. Where was I negative about this opinion.

David

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

For the record. Where was I negative about this opinion.

David

I don't think you were, but others have been elsewhere.

Frankly I think we are all agreeing a bit contentiously here.

RED kicks ass, and I want to use it in a few more ways.

Its the opposite of taking an ENG camera and adapting it to narrative film use.

I sometimes need to take my digital cinema camera and adapt it to ENG/EFP use- including the post environment and turnaround times.

 

[David Battistella]

What you say is completely fine for a film workflow. There image quality is paramount, and time will be taken to craft the image.

And you are right, a ProRes output module will do everything I need. If the HD-SDI output of the EPIC and Scarlet delivers real high quality SDI, then I can even use a 3rd party solution and deliver what I need to deliver.

Let me be a bit more specific: I need fast delivery on cheap media and the ability to play back and edit in 1080p on most NLE systems.

If I have a client that requires me to turn media over at the end of the shoot... RED is useless.

The ideal here is to hand over some HDCAM tapes... but handing over a hard drive with digital media is increasingly attractive as prices plummet on drives.

If I have to go direct to edit with a short turnaround to air... RED is useless. The render time is murder.

What if I have to edit in the field? Ha!

The best I can manage is a 720p output to a KiPro or NanoFlash. That 720p output is of dubious quality. I can turn over a hard drive and I can do direct to edit, and even edit in real time on a laptop in the field... but 720p ProRes from the SDI on the RED is a travesty compared to what a rendered 720p full debayer would look like.

For all those applications an EX1 completely smokes a RED. Recording both to an external recorder, the EX1 gives me better resolution and higher picture quality. An HPX3700 is a whole other level and smokes the EX1- the onboard recorder delivers 10 bit 4:2:2, and an outboard recorder can deliver 4:4:4.

What I want is to be able to deliver to all my different clients with a RED, in all the different production environments.

As I wrote above, I think EPIC and Scarlet will address a lot of these shortcomings and let me deliver to more clients with the same camera.

Then instead of renting a pile of ENG cameras, I can invest in more RED lenses and support gear.

Its a lot of words, dedicated to what is really a problem whose interime solution is already probably in the pipeline and whose proper solution (REDCODE as your native editing codec) is coming due to the march of technology.

Alexander,

What you are experiencing is that you are seeing the potential of RED. The original 720P out was meant to be no more than a high quality video tap, then everyone wants to record on that and turn it around.

You are right, the EX-1 smokes the RED in certain situations and vice versa. Everyone wants the worlds perfect camera to satisfy every sinngle situation, but I am afraid that might be a utopian view.

When I look at a shoot, I think about the RED first, but there have been times that the best tool is something that demands a faster turnaround, or a more portable set up.

I'd love it if there was only one video standard. I wish LONG GOP would go away forever, but that's just me. The tools are the tools. RED can satisfy any format from cinema to web and everything in-between, but there is a set added where RAW data needs to be converted to something.

One point of view is that it is a pain in the ass, another is that it is the most flexible system out there. Youcan shoot RED and deliver to ANYTHING, but it is NOT and ENG style camera, it was not concieved (initially) with ENG in mind, but everyone loves the images so much that they want to wedge the RED ONE into ENG workflows.

EX-1 is not exactly a fast camera, it takes a very long time to import the footage into FCP and the tool to do that with is pretty weak.

All of your points are valid and I am do not disagree, but I will say that there is what the tool is great at and what it is not so great at, that's all we really have to know.

I'm pretty sure RED knows that too and MUCH of what we are talking about is most likely being addressed in the EPIC system. That remains to be seen, but given all that we are discussing RED moved things and things are still moving.

Exciting times.

David

 

[David Battistella]

I sometimes need to take my digital cinema camera and adapt it to ENG/EFP use- including the post environment and turnaround times.

Totally!

And it pisses me off every time I have had to go to another system when the situation arises. We all want it to be everything because it is such sexy imagery.

David

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

This reminds me of a comedy bit from Louis CK- Everything is awesome, but somehow, no one is happy!! Haha

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Well said, David. RED is all about quality. If you prefer speed, volume over quality, clearly RED is not the right camera for you.

Having said that, as has been mentioned several times before, R3Ds on Adobe CS5 or Vegas Pro 9 make for a potent drag/drop real-time edit workflow. 1080p on half-debayer renders pretty quick, and is still miles ahead of the DSLRs in terms of image quality AND faster than editing with H.264 of DSLRs. Once again, the workflow isn't an issue AT ALL, unless you are using Apple. It really is time to move on to Adobe or Sony or even Avid. I don't think it is fair to complain about RED if you are using what is an obsolete set of software. Keep up with the times, and there would be no issues whatsoever.

Of course, I am sure RED is listening and I am sure there will be a slew of proxy modules anyway, starting with H.264. In that case, though, you are effectively misusing most of the capabilities of the RED cameras. Why use a 4K camera if you are in a hurry and 1080p is "good enough"?

 

[Santiago Marti]

Right now i don't see any workflow problem with RED. Any serious post house knows how to handle it, otherwise they will have less work. Being a red owner and a PPro cs5 user my experience is painless, it is not very different from a DV workflow.

I think that FCP users rely on a complicated workflow and think it is red's fault, but it is not.

I can even edit on my dell mobile workstation in real time using cs5 and burn a bluray, compare that to film workflow and we are light years ahead. Export edl to scratch or anything, use after effects, nuke, etc...

You have a lot of choices, they cost money, but it is way more affordable than ever. If you shoot 4K raw and expect to edit that in an imac, well, maybe that is not the best or fastest way, but you can though i wouldn't recommend it. Choose the best tool according to your needs not the other way around.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I think it is a very clear pattern here. It is the Apple users who are complaining incessantly, while PPro CS5/Vegas Pro 9/Avid MC5 are just sailing through their workflow with no problems at all. Honestly, I couldn't imagine an easier workflow than this: http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/redsupport/!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I sorta push through tons of RED images every day, and all I can say is:

Yes we can.

I am not saying that things are flawless, but as one of them considering the Varicam when I was lead to a crazy homepage with a rather cheesy comparison between SD, HD and 4k, I sorta saw the light - and boiught an HVX while waiting...

Which I sold exactly one week after getting my RED and haven't missed it for a sec.

I am not really excusing the inconvieniences that pop up at new places every time RED gives me a new cam with a NEW build, but I have the choice of staying with my old cam and current working workflows or jump into new issue-solving.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

If I have a client that requires me to turn media over at the end of the shoot... RED is useless.

Alexander,

Can you tell me specifically under what circumstances this occurs?

I've been on many types of shoots: commercials, docs, features, TV shows, political campaigns, court depositions, video wills, super-secret product and high-security factory shoots where I could actually "disappear" the next day if I leaked anything... I just don't encounter this in my experience.

I hear this often as a complaint against the workflow. Can you give me an idea of what circumstances you're shooting in? Is this a common situation for you?

 

[Peter Hodgins]

For all those applications an EX1 completely smokes a RED.

...

Then instead of renting a pile of ENG cameras, I can invest in more RED lenses and support gear.

I think your solution is simple ... just bite the bullet and buy/rent an EX1 ... or become less mercenary and shoot solely on RED ONE ... go for jobs that pay for the total RED ONE product/solution ... CINEMA