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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Issues

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

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Allthough i am enthusiastic enough to have started a bussiness providing some services for the RED clients in Europe, i need to explain some problems that i´ve been finding with the RED ONE:

- digital noise. Am i the only one to discover that anything above 320 iso has horrible levels of noise? I am not talking about grain, but about digital ugly noise, specially in the blue channel, that makes the footage unusable. Varicam for example produces images with more noise than a RED, but it looks more "filmic" (if you want to call it that way). As soon as red footage shows noise, vertical patterns appear and blacks are flooded with noise artifacts.

- why can´t we choose lower shutter speeds than 1/24th even when shooting at slower speeds than 24fps?

- LCD+Viewfinder+HDSDI output all together is a must for any professional production that goes beyond "testing new gear". This topic has been discussed in the last week but it is quite important.

- Redcine looks promising but your library gets crazy once you get a lot of footage to deal with. I cannot think of managing the thousands shots that a feature film involves right now without the help of two tibetan buddhist monks to bring you peace and tranquility in the task of conforming and managing files. :biggrin:
 
I hope you're the only one that has that digital noise issue. Red's been saying all along that their camera has the least noise of almost all digital cinema cameras.
 
I find up to ISO 1000 to be extremely usable. Hell, I'd feel comfortable doing an entire movie in ISO1000 if it was a gritty night movie (Underworld, etc).

Btw, what is your Red #? I thought you were in the hundreds somewhere.
 
macgregor said:
Allthough i am enthusiastic enough to have started a bussiness providing some services for the RED clients in Europe, i need to explain some problems that i´ve been finding with the RED ONE:

- digital noise. Am i the only one to discover that anything above 320 iso has horrible levels of noise? I am not talking about grain, but about digital ugly noise, specially in the blue channel, that makes the footage unusable. Varicam for example produces images with more noise than a RED, but it looks more "filmic" (if you want to call it that way). As soon as red footage shows noise, vertical patterns appear and blacks are flooded with noise artifacts.

- why can´t we choose lower shutter speeds than 1/24th even when shooting at lower speeds than 24fps?

- LCD+Viewfinder+HDSDI output all together is a must for any professional production that goes beyond "trying new gear". This topic has been discussed in the last week but it is quite important.

- Redcine looks promising but your library gets crazy once you get a lot of footage to deal with. I cannot think of managing the thousands shots that a feature film involves right now without the help of two tibetan buddhist monks to bring you peace and tranquility in the task of conforming and managing files. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

Say it ain't so. Someone please chime in to explain what is happening here. DigitalFX, maybe you can elaborate on the issue as well, seeing as you seem to have experienced the problem also.
 
macgregor said:
Allthough i am enthusiastic enough to have started a bussiness providing some services for the RED clients in Europe, i need to explain some problems that i´ve been finding with the RED ONE:

- digital noise. Am i the only one to discover that anything above 320 iso has horrible levels of noise? I am not talking about grain, but about digital ugly noise, specially in the blue channel, that makes the footage unusable. Varicam for example produces images with more noise than a RED, but it looks more "filmic" (if you want to call it that way). As soon as red footage shows noise, vertical patterns appear and blacks are flooded with noise artifacts.

- why can´t we choose lower shutter speeds than 1/24th even when shooting at lower speeds than 24fps?

- LCD+Viewfinder+HDSDI output all together is a must for any professional production that goes beyond "trying new gear". This topic has been discussed in the last week but it is quite important.

- Redcine looks promising but your library gets crazy once you get a lot of footage to deal with. I cannot think of managing the thousands shots that a feature film involves right now without the help of two tibetan buddhist monks to bring you peace and tranquility in the task of conforming and managing files. :biggrin:
Click to expand...


This sounds like a MAJOR problem, if what you are saying is true.

Can Jim provide a response to this please !
 
It's totally obvious how the current version of RedCode is much better at compressing the clean Green channel compared to the noisier Blue channel.
There is definitely both blocking- and detail smoothing artifacts visible in most images posted. Exactly how you respond to this is up to your personal taste.

I believe they are hard at work refining the camera hardware encode. Have you tried the newest firmware?

Some blue channel extracts:
rcoc.jpg

rocz.jpg

rcod.jpg
 
digitalfx said:
Yes this is an issue...I am hoping this will be solved with the "daughter board" upgrade that is coming soon.
Click to expand...

Jim has stated that a daughter board upgrade has been canceled in favor of an increased bit rate. I can't find the bit rate quote, but I know Jim or somebody else on the team has said as much.

Jannard said:
We got real smart (not me, the board gods) and made the improvement without a new daughter board. That is finished and not the hold-up.Jim
Click to expand...
 
specially in the blue channel
Click to expand...

Using blue only mode is a common technique to evaluate compression algorithms. Deluxe did this when first evaluating MPEG-2, AVC and VC-1 for HD DVD. They would use the blue only mode on the Sony BVMs, which would produce B&W. Compression artifacts really stand out in the blue channel. The basis patterns really hit you in the face. What was really amazing was how those artifacts were virtually impossible to see if you were not in blue only mode. They have sense stopped using blue only mode.

You can do the same thing in REDCINE by selecting B and M on the top bar.

I imagine the higher data rate will help.

Edit: I see Anders posted some examples of what I call basis patterns. Of course REDCODE is wavelet, not DCT or integer transform, but the patterns look similar. These images are mild compared to a typical DVD.
 
I wouldn´t say it is a major problem. We are talking about inconveniences. If the limit of the camera is 320iso right now, then that´s what it is. (BTW, lightmeter+histogram in hand, i dont see it as 320 but a bit lower than that).

The camera produces the cleanest images we´ve seen as long as you keep them in good light levels. The problem here is that once you try to recover information from the far left part of the histogram (increasing exposure in redcine or raisnig levels in any CG application), the ugly pattern noise appears.
And since ISO is just a digital metadata, this kind of artifacts are more and more evident when you shoot at higher ISO. (you are getting your image from the darker area of the histogram, not raising gain in the CMOS).
 
the red team should try to learn something with canon experience!!! the canon sensor is amazing. so I hope some day Red could get there.... that was my dream canon sensor with movement!!! I believe in Red(bayer) sensor but still young and in development. I want to follow you guys....... and since "everything in life change" I hope the noise get good levels
 
BillG said:
Jim has stated that a daughter board upgrade has been canceled in favor of an increased bit rate. I can't find the bit rate quote, but I know Jim or somebody else on the team has said as much.
Click to expand...

exactly, thats why I referred to it in quotes....whatever it is, it is being addressed.

As far as a better explanation of what the problem is, its just as macgregor described it. The areas in the shadows or the underexposed parts of the image have alot of noise. I can post example, but the ones above do a good job.
 
FYI, Jim said they won't be doing a daughter board but rather favorable results were achieved without it.
 
When you choose a shutter and then change frame rate, the shutter scales to your speed. A 1/24 at 1fps would be a 1 second shutter. It just isn't labeled properly AFAIK.

Edit: I think... I'm doubting myself after a few minutes. See my later post.
 
Brook Willard said:
When you choose a shutter and then change frame rate, the shutter scales to your speed. A 1/24 at 1fps would be a 1 second shutter. It just isn't labeled properly AFAIK.
Click to expand...

Unless that is in beta build 11, the way you describe doesn´t work for me. :( The camera runs at 1fps but each frame was taken at 1/24th of a sec (or higher).
I guess they will implement shutter degree angles sooner or later, even when it´s just an old term referred to film cameras.
 
Mac I saw a strange noise on your Ipod screen footage and its a normal exposure thats right?
 
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