Is this camera a joke?

[patrykrebisz]

After gruealing 2 days of shooting on a music video i gotta say it's the last time i'm working with this camera as i don't want to subject another director to similar BS.

I mean codec errors... even if i shoot to the Flash Cards??? Dropped frames for no apparent reason. Sometimes the hard drive working/recording flawlessly then out of no-where it chooses to give you the the codec errors. Simple bugs like the frame-rate displaying inproperly on the LCD screen but then properly in the menus... Simple things that still take extra time to find the simple work-arounds/fix. I mean the list is never ending. The manual that makes it look so simple while in reality it should be filed with warnings about all the fuck-up that can and WILL go wrong.

The quotes/jokes made on the set about the camera are just pure gold:

An AC calling it "Charlie Chaplin camera" because it makes the filmmaking clunking as if it was last century.

The director calling it RED bacause all the errors that flash on the screen.

The jib guy joking it's called RED because it acts like a woman on her period (sorry, gross i know).

Here, we managed to gell all that we needed to get, but you ain't talking me into using this camera again.

Patryk Rebisz
director/DP
http://www.patrykrebisz.com

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Fair criticisms based on your experience I guess, but so far it seems the majority of people to not have such problems, so I wouldn't write the camera off just yet - things are still developing for the RED One camera and it's workflow.

 

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Sounds like somebody used a beta build on a commercial project?

So far, whenever there was a problem, there was help - from Red, this forum, other camera owners.

This is a rant, not helpful at all.

As for clunky filmmaking: Yep, much more clunky than shooting video with full automatic HDV. But I´ve looked at your page. You know that.

Jochen

 

[David M]

An AC calling it "Charlie Chaplin camera" because it makes the filmmaking clunking as if it was last century.

I don't recall it being all that difficult to use 20th century cameras:sarcasm:
If you mean the 19th century, Charlie Chaplin didn't actually start making movies until 1914, so that makes him 20th century!
As for the RED you get what you pay for I guess. But thanks for sharing; it's all grist for the mill. Nice to see someone posting here with a credible track record.
Also women are usually difficult BEFORE their period, the RED part is usually a sign of welcome relief. But the Red sea is said to be red becasue Cleopatra bathed there periodically. Sorry I'll stop now...

 

[Mike Prevette]

What build? Who was your DIT?

 

[Andrew Walker]

You know, I think all these recent post by people trying to talk crap about Red is because NAB is going on...that's it. People just love to bitch about stuff when they think their doing everything right. I bet some of these people work for Sony.

 

[Gabriel C.]

It looks to me like you guys used the camera on a shoot thinking you could just pick it up and use it with no training. It's not a video camera ... you wouldn't pick up a 35mm camera and just start cranking away without being trained and the same goes for RED.

Also, and this is more of a personal thing, it's my experience that stuff tends to go wrong when there's lots of negativity. From the tone of your post, it sounds like there was a propensity toward negativity on set ... I would be weary of that. Whenever I have problems and there are negative people around, the problems get worse. That's why I try as much as I can to surround myself with positive people (except for A.D.'s I want them to live in reality and I want people to be scared of them ... heck, I want to be scared of them too) ... anyway, those are my thoughts on this. 1. You need to be trained and 2. Stay positive ... RED knows ...

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Since 99.9% of us are able to use it with little or no problems, remind me never to hire your crew. You guys aren't too good with cameras are you?




Jay

 

[Mark Pedersen]

After gruealing 2 days of shooting on a music video i gotta say it's the last time i'm working with this camera as i don't want to subject another director to similar BS.

I mean codec errors... even if i shoot to the Flash Cards??? Dropped frames for no apparent reason. Sometimes the hard drive working/recording flawlessly then out of no-where it chooses to give you the the codec errors. Simple bugs like the frame-rate displaying inproperly on the LCD screen but then properly in the menus... Simple things that still take extra time to find the simple work-arounds/fix. I mean the list is never ending. The manual that makes it look so simple while in reality it should be filed with warnings about all the fuck-up that can and WILL go wrong.

The quotes/jokes made on the set about the camera are just pure gold:

An AC calling it "Charlie Chaplin camera" because it makes the filmmaking clunking as if it was last century.

The director calling it RED bacause all the errors that flash on the screen.

The jib guy joking it's called RED because it acts like a woman on her period (sorry, gross i know).

Here, we managed to gell all that we needed to get, but you ain't talking me into using this camera again.

Patryk Rebisz
director/DP
http://www.patrykrebisz.com

So.... did anyone test the camera, cards, drives and configuration before your grueling shoot? What software build were you using?

Did you rent it? If so, does your rental shop really know the camera?

I just received my camera. Everything came in perfect condition, everything checked out perfectly - all media, drives, record rates, ramps, 4K, 3K, 2K...Current build 15.

We're about to do a complex effects 3 day shoot, and I'm totally confident. Because we checked it out thoroughly. AND we have a back up body at the rental house on hold just in case—mostly because we haven't yet shot my camera on a job.

I'd be willing to bet there were issues with your set up before you went on set. And that you could have avoided it with the right information and proper tests.

M

 

[Rick Darge]

Viva la Red!!

Been using 363 for over 8 weeks without fail.. few minor bumps here and there but never lost any footage or anything like that..

Sounds like you had

1) Broken Camera
2) Broken Firmware
3) Broken Crew
4) All of the above?

 

[PaulClements]

Patryk you really should take the quarrel to whoever rented you the camera. Having done plenty of commercial productions without anywhere near the kinds of problems you are talking about the fault for me lies squarely with who you rented from.

It sounds like they installed a new build just before your shoot, perhaps because you required certain functions that weren't included in the release build. When adopting a new build it is very important that the camera is checked to make sure the build went successfully and the camera functions correctly. Whoever rented to you has not done this.

Paul

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

User error to camera failure ratio reality check

User error to camera failure ratio reality check

OK, the RedOne and its firmware are not perfect, fair enough. That said I truly believe that the vast majority of on set issues are user error. No matter how experienced, talented and professional your camera department might be the RedOne requires a few paradigm shifts to really understand.

I am not saying that the operation of the camera is complicated, simply that it requires the right approach. This camera was designed from a clean sheet of paper so some assumptions that serve you well with other rigs do not necessarily apply.

On Saturday, at an NAB seminar, Steven Poster publicly labeled the Red as not ready for higher end production due to reliability issues. All due respect to the estimable Mr. Poster (former ASC president), I think the camera itself is getting an unfair share of the blame.

With RedOne savvy techs on set I would suggest a 98% uptime rate is a conservative assessment. Yes, in a perfect world the camera would be foolproof but what camera is? Years of hard earned experience have made it possible for professional camera departments to achieve very high uptime rates with many different camera packages. Despite this fact, most higher end projects have a second camera body on hand regardless of format / camera / media type. If your daily burn rate is over $15,000 and you didn't include a second body in your plan that is simply poor producing no matter what camera package you choose.

 

[CJ Roy]

Users have been getting the codec error on the release build #15 from the cf cards, and the Red-Drive is... well, it's fragile. I don't think Patryk can be knocked for that... those elements are supposed to work correctly, if he did use a release build.

However, this goes to show that the camera truly requires a dedicated person who knows it inside and out and is up to date on user reports about compatibility issues with builds and media.

In some worlds, the camera is a blessing. In others, it's a pain in the ass. A good red-tech/DIT can make that difference.

my .02

 

[Jeff Coatney]

After gruealing 2 days of shooting on a music video i gotta say it's the last time i'm working with this camera as i don't want to subject another director to similar BS.

I mean codec errors... even if i shoot to the Flash Cards??? Dropped frames for no apparent reason. Sometimes the hard drive working/recording flawlessly then out of no-where it chooses to give you the the codec errors. Simple bugs like the frame-rate displaying inproperly on the LCD screen but then properly in the menus... Simple things that still take extra time to find the simple work-arounds/fix. I mean the list is never ending. The manual that makes it look so simple while in reality it should be filed with warnings about all the fuck-up that can and WILL go wrong.

The quotes/jokes made on the set about the camera are just pure gold:

An AC calling it "Charlie Chaplin camera" because it makes the filmmaking clunking as if it was last century.

The director calling it RED bacause all the errors that flash on the screen.

The jib guy joking it's called RED because it acts like a woman on her period (sorry, gross i know).

Here, we managed to gell all that we needed to get, but you ain't talking me into using this camera again.

Obviously RED has an uphill battle to fight to prove itself to this DP and this Crew. Although Patryk feels burned by his experience, he got what he needed even with the difficulties he mentioned. I see that as a positive.

 

[fightordie]

This DIT person everyone keeps bringing up. I'm working with the genisis right now. I know its differnt from the RED but there is no DIT. If we all want Red to be accepted and used on big shoots Forget a DIT its a luxury that production will not get passed.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Patryk you really should take the quarrel to whoever rented you the camera. Having done plenty of commercial productions without anywhere near the kinds of problems you are talking about the fault for me lies squarely with who you rented from.

It sounds like they installed a new build just before your shoot, perhaps because you required certain functions that weren't included in the release build. When adopting a new build it is very important that the camera is checked to make sure the build went successfully and the camera functions correctly. Whoever rented to you has not done this.

Paul

I agree. You should have had a spare body. I guess RED was the color of the ink the budget for this project was written in as well.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

You simply have to have someone on set, who knows this camera inside-out.

Emmanuel

 

[Stephen Williams]

I agree. You should have had a spare body as well.

Hi,

If that is so then any financial advantage of using a cheaper camera just evaporated! Extra bodies seem to cost $800 (4%) per day.

Stephen

 

[Egil Odegard]

After gruealing 2 days of shooting on a music video i gotta say it's the last time i'm working with this camera as i don't want to subject another director to similar BS.


Here, we managed to gell all that we needed to get, but you ain't talking me into using this camera again.

Patryk Rebisz
director/DP
http://www.patrykrebisz.com

In old time we checked the equipment, we cheeked the magazines etc before we went out on a shoot. We did a test and did send it to the lab before shooting.

Today DOPs (and their assistants) just show up and think they can start shooting. I will for example recommend that to shoot to every CF-card to see that they are ok (and check the images afterwards) before starting shooting.

I normally tell people that you have to have as many people and a complete checkout on RED as if it was a 35mm shoot…

There is a lack of respect for the routines of the craft in many people shooting on RED, they think they can start using it like it was a PD150 camera…

I do not know what happed before this shooting, and I am not criticizing this DOP and his team. But I have seen example of this myself as a producer. And when the Producer (me) ends up by asking the camera team to use more paid hours to check the equipment, it is not longer as it used to be….

 

[Jeff Coatney]

This DIT person everyone keeps bringing up. I'm working with the genisis right now. I know its differnt from the RED but there is no DIT. If we all want Red to be accepted and used on big shoots Forget a DIT its a luxury that production will not get passed.

The DIT provides a net savings to the production by managing the footage. On a film shoot you pay for this with rawstock and lab costs. Take the rawstock and lab costs out of your equation and see how your numbers add up now. The work the DIT does on-set takes a big chunk out of the editorial budget (time) as well. Your supposition that the DIT is a luxury is wrong. A big production would happily hire a DIT because it would be the cheapest insurance policy they could get.

BTW, the Genesis still uses rawstock and that footage still has to be digitized. So, no labor savings there.