Is the future FF35?

[Mark K.]

I think people are still a little confused about the key issues of shooting motion pictures with still glass.

The issue isn't image quality (and I doubt whether at any point in the past 20 years it would have been) still glass produces superb images. The issue is operability, namely focus throw (yes breathing is a consideration but there are tests on the internet comparing Zeiss ZF lenses to Super Speeds and the ZFs breath LESS than the cine lens, so I'm not convinced that's a major issue), the problem with using still lenses for a professional production intended for broadcast or theatrical distribution, is the ability of the lenses to allow a focus puller to efficiently track subjects in front of the camera.

Can it be done? Certainly, but not without considerable hardship, that's just a simple reality of shooting with a lens that will focus from 10' to infinity with just a 2mm turn of the focus ring - and that's the issue with shooting on still glass.

 

[Andrew Walker]

It seems like the biggest hang up with most of the people is with the glass for FF35. Personally I have a good feeling that people are going to start re-housing some of the really nice still lenses for cinema applications. Sure it costs money but I bet it will still be way cheaper than buying a set of Master Primes. So I think the biggest problem with this is the still glass at the wide end. Most of the primes in the 35mm and up can be found rather fast already. Once DP's start shooting in 6K FF35 I'm sure they will find new an exciting ways to use that extra area.

Personally I think people underestimate still glass a little too much.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

But Tom, it isn't it unfair to compare Anamorphic to regular glass in terms of sharpness? They are different beasts, and the 50mm anamorphic gave you much wider file of view than the sharper 50mm Canon. If you said spherical Primo vs the Canon then it would make much more sense. Right?

You are totally right Andrew.

I certainly appreciate the still glass. When you make tenths and tenths of thousands you can afford much better equipment for the assembly, and fork up far more for design. The true gem of this point is the Breiger with an Impero coupled with L-Series Canons. But there is more than just that powerful combo which includes a 14mm f/2.8.

It seems Red is making their own with their FF35 lenses, which were announced back around when Breiger was first coming out/being demonstrated. Well, around that time anyway, I am not very sure of the details of that schedule. Aparently they are implementing a touch screen to select focus, possibly in hopes to take back (at least a portion of) that market.

Also, apparently the Zeiss Compacts are completely rehoused ZFs, which were tested a while back and proven to be a bit sharper than Super Speeds.

Don't forget about the Ruby, which would make so many of you for HH and steady cam,especially with the longer focus throw now announced!

And of course the little mighty Tokina which used as a ~12.5mm prime would satisfy 90%+ of you in both operation and performance.

I wonder if there will be others jumping into the pool of motorized FF35 lenses specifically designed for cinema use?

And i think David made a big point when he touched on how with the added sensor size you may not need such fast lenses. Not sure about the intricacies and technicalities of that subject, I'll leave that you you guys to discuss. But it does make the Zeiss Compact's speeds, which everyone (me included) made so much fuzz about, make much more sense. The same carries over to the other f/2.8 speeds of the Canon 14mm, Tokina, Ruby and the original ZF's.

 

[Tom Lowe]

The 50mm anamorphic Primo gave me an FOV similar to the 24mm L, but the Canon 24 beat the Primo in image quality. The 50mm f/1.2 beat both of them. That lens is badass.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Evangelos, your issue seems to arise when you use an 'effective' sensor speed of 80 asa (with adapter) whereas we're hoping the Epic FF35 will be around 450/500.

The difference in DoF between S35 and FF35 that I have measure experimentally in my lab using the two frame sizes by keeping the same FoV was 1,66 stops...

So if REDone has S35 and its 320ASA to have the equivalent in FF35 we need the following:

320 x 2 = 640ASA this is one stop

640 x 1,66 = 1062ASA for the rest 2/3 stops

So effectively to have the same DoF characteristics we need at least 800ASA for both Daylight and Tungsten...

Because if you use to work with F2 in a low light interior now to get a similar effect you will need to work at F2,8 2/3 so you will need 1 2/3 stops more light...

it will be a real issue for low light interiors...

So I thing that we will 80% of the time, work with cropped S35...

With SGblade Roto 3 GG I get 1 stop loss so its 160 ASA for Viper and with Varicam I get 320ASA... with Varicam's 320ASA the FF35 is still a big pain in the ass, when we are with artificial light... Imagine that Varicam is Tungestin balanced sensor so it is 320ASA in low light interior... I have all the time the DoP asking me to change to S35...

What will happen if we get a 400ASA Epic FF35 balanced again in Daylight???

 

[david farland]

What lenses, frames sizes, setup, did you use?
Dave

 

[Scott C.]

The economics of scale finally come to the world of cinematography! That is why this still/cine convergence is such a game changer and frankly, I feel that this is exactly the reason why the big manufacturers have resisted it for so long.

 

[Patrick Scheller]

... So effectively to have the same DoF characteristics we need at least 800ASA for both Daylight and Tungsten...
Because if you use to work with F2 in a low light interior now to get a similar effect you will need to work at F2,8 2/3 so you will need 1 2/3 stops more light...

Yeah but you forget, that the bigger sensor can handle higher ISO better (less noise) and the newest generation of sensors will be even more sensitive, so I see no reason to worry and probably rarely a need to work in cropped S35 only because of low light situations. I actually expect the Scarlet/Epic FF35 sensors to be able to do 800 ISO with no disturbing noise and 1000 - 1200 ISO with acceptable noise. And that I more than enough! :aureola:

Besides you also seem to forget that you can buy some awesomely fast SLR-FF35 lenses for a fraction of equivalent S35 lenses (like the above mentioned Canon 50mm 1.2) which is a more sensible solution for low light scenes IMHO
:emote_hippie:

 

[Scott C.]

I think people are still a little confused about the key issues of shooting motion pictures with still glass.

The issue isn't image quality (and I doubt whether at any point in the past 20 years it would have been) still glass produces superb images. The issue is operability, namely focus throw... the problem... is the ability of the lenses to allow a focus puller to efficiently track subjects in front of the camera.

You are right but, the Imperio already adjusts for this with the touch of a button, a video demo is here if you are unfamiliar. I'm not an engineer, I don't think that they had to invent new technology to create this solution.

The Canon and Nikon mounts should have the ability to interface with the USMs right out of the box. It also seems in keeping with the Red philosophy that they would include that ability as a matter of principle. Yes, bluetooth ready mounts should be standard equipment. I'll take it one step further and make a guess; I'm guessing that the Red remote is a bluetooth device, so the brain will either have bluetooth built in, or it will come pre-wired, and the receiver will come in a module. If that were the case then perhaps the mount wouldn't need it.

Do I expect too much? I guess I prefer to remain hopeful. :drool5:

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

What lenses, frames sizes, setup, did you use?
Dave

The lens used was the Zeiss 50mm F2 macro.

The target was an Iso Res chart.

I used a Kodak Grey Card plus to measure the light levels...

The workflow was, keeping FoV the same (the iso in full frame) in both FF35 and S35, with Zeiss - SGblade - my relay - Viper... to achieve that, I used my relay that is capable for both FF35 and S35 frame sizes...

Then I measure the DoF by move the camera back and forth with a dolly...

The difference is 1,66 stops... for the same lens to have the same FoV and the same DoF...

 

[Jason Wingrove]

chatted a bit about this on an upcoming ep.. things have moved so fast while the indy crowd has been been waiting for the 2/3 scarlet theyve all found the 5D and the beauty of FF35. Yes Scarlet will have a truly amazing 180fps burst, amazing redcode, no Jellocam and is 3K! etc but im finding myself so in love with FF35, more than i thought i would that all of those plusses make 2/3" a tough argument . YES we're spoilt but thats what the speed of tech is doing to us now, turning us all into spoilt greedy kids that want it all.

That said, RED are some seriously smart people and im sure they see the writing on the wall so I think we should all still prepare ourselves to be blown away yet again when they leapfrog everyone out there.

jas

 

[david farland]

Evangelos, I suspect the relay may introduce changes in effective focal length & resultant DoF.
D

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Nope... the relay has nothing to do... it picks up the image behind a ground glass... so there is nothing that the relay is doing to the characteristics of the image...

Do the experiment in a DoF calculator...

To simulate the results and have the same FoV from the same distance put a 75mm lens on a FF35 frame size and an 50mm on a S35 frame size... this two lenses will give, to the different formats, the same field of view for the same object distance... now go to the charts and see the DoF... to be equal in both, you have to close the aperture by 1,66 stops on the FF35...

 

[david farland]

Can't see how placinig a 7cm barrel between the lens and a sensor won't change the DOF calculations as it will change the magnification!

Do the experiment in a DoF calculator...

Already done it in THIS thread.

Depending on your Coc for s35/FF35 lenses, say the FF35 sensor is 1 stop faster.
So the equations you're likely to have are:
S35 (Coc=.017) x 50mm x f4 x 4 metres = .88m DOF
FF35 (Coc=.025) x 75mm x f5.6 x 4 metres = .80 DOF

Dave,

 

[carl114]

Changing the recording format changes everything from glass, filters and matte boxes to tv screens. I sincerely doubt the industry is that fickle / impulsive. Many changes happen in this industry when they have to. When there is no long any excuse to hide behind. There is no reason what so ever to go from s35 to ff35 other than personal choice. The industry will not go through such radical change and great expense for such a choice.

 

[Scott C.]

Changing the recording format changes everything from glass, filters and matte boxes to tv screens. I sincerely doubt the industry is that fickle / impulsive. Many changes happen in this industry when they have to. When there is no long any excuse to hide behind. There is no reason what so ever to go from s35 to ff35 other than personal choice. The industry will not go through such radical change and great expense for such a choice.

It's true you would have to re-tool quite a lot, but a whole new rig can cost less than half. Great expense? :blink: I guess I disagree 100%.

Business goes wherever the money is, and the business of entertainment is a fickle whore indeed.

Production is full of creative choices, and all creative choices are personal choices until the bean counters get involved... and that brings us back to :blink:

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Can't see how placinig a 7cm barrel between the lens and a sensor won't change the DOF calculations as it will change the magnification!

Already done it in THIS thread.

Dave,

There is no magnification... we have debated to death in DVXuser...

We basically agree... you say it 1 stop I say its 1,66... there is a slight difference in your numbers... so it seems that it is somewhere in the middle... so 1 1/3 stop is the best guess...

 

[Tom Lowe]

chatted a bit about this on an upcoming ep.. things have moved so fast while the indy crowd has been been waiting for the 2/3 scarlet theyve all found the 5D and the beauty of FF35. Yes Scarlet will have a truly amazing 180fps burst, amazing redcode, no Jellocam and is 3K! etc but im finding myself so in love with FF35, more than i thought i would that all of those plusses make 2/3" a tough argument . YES we're spoilt but thats what the speed of tech is doing to us now, turning us all into spoilt greedy kids that want it all.

That said, RED are some seriously smart people and im sure they see the writing on the wall so I think we should all still prepare ourselves to be blown away yet again when they leapfrog everyone out there.

jas

You know what they say: "Once you go FF35, you never go back." :sifone:

 

[Andrew Walker]

You know what they say: "Once you go FF35, you never go back." :sifone:

I think people are going to start finding that out here really soon.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

You know what they say: "Once you go FF35, you never go back." :sifone:

And yet the RPPs are not FF, nor are the majority of professional cine lenses.

With what cinema lenses is this FF revolution going to occur with? Is Red going to release RPRPPs. Really Pro Red Pro Primes?

EDIT: with Red advertising their RPPs as the lenses of the future (with great coverage and all that), it seems they dont think cinema is going to rush headlong into FF territory, otherwise the RPPs would be FF. Funny to even say that "s35 is good enough"