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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is RED upgrading EPIC-X yet?

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Elsie N said:
Michael. while your post is accurate in most respects, I suggest that RED very much wants to (and at the time announced, expect to) meet the timeline of their products reaching market.

But I think when you are creating new products (sensors, boards, ASICS, firmware etc.) that no one has created in the way being offered one has to expect the unexpected to happen. On the other hand, how do you quantify in time the cost of the unexpected... or oven the monetary cost?

Other camera companies have the benefit of seeing what RED has accomplished and can proceed with fewer unknowns.

I can see where it is an accepted self-centered belief that a company should meet its targets... but if you think of the process holistically, then you are able to understand that any delays are good things because they are solving problems now instead of later.

As a RED customer, I feel I am better served when the company succeeds in its goal of not only best in class, but Grand Champion!
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Most of what you say is true, and certainly there are many problems along the way when developing bleeding edge technology... and yes, I understand that Red has a different approach than all other camera makers and accept that early Red products are in a beta stage for some time. That still doesn't mean Red should be 'showing' Epics being converted into Dragons at NAB in 2013, when most people will not get their Dragons till a year+ later. This shows a huge level of miscalculation that Red continually demonstrates. A company's marketing department should NEVER be overly optimistic with timelines. NEVER. Yet Red does this over and over again.

I'm not lamenting Red missing it's targets. All companies miss targets. I'm lamenting Red missing it's very public hyped up targets! If there is ANY uncertainty, don't be announcing timelines or show Epics being upgraded to Dragons in a very public tradeshow when the reality is a year+ away. And certainly, don't announce a new sensor 3 years before you can deliver... unless there is some hidden benefit (that I don't see) to being labeled/known as a company that continually does this.
 
D Anderson said:
You say not to get impatient for fear up upsetting RED?

I read comments like this a lot on REDUSER. "Don't rock the boat" - "Shhh, RED might stop giving out free updates", "they might stop the upgrade program and force us all to buy a new camera."

...
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My take on what Brian was saying is that constant complaints may cause RED to quit giving us even a roadmap for future programs.

Imagine if we were just now learning there is an upgrade ready and locked down for Epic to Dragon sensor. Many of us would be without available funds to pay for such an upgrade because we wouldn't have time to plan... or the same thing for a new module.

Better to not rock the boat as has been done in the past that caused RED to become more tight-lipped about future products.
 
Michael Gyori said:
Most of what you say is true, and certainly there are many problems along the way when developing bleeding edge technology... and yes, I understand that Red has a different approach than all other camera makers and accept that early Red products are in a beta stage for some time. That still doesn't mean Red should be 'showing' Epics being converted into Dragons at NAB in 2013, when most people will not get their Dragons till a year+ later. This shows a huge level of miscalculation that Red continually demonstrates. A company's marketing department should NEVER be overly optimistic with timelines. NEVER. Yet Red does this over and over again.

I'm not lamenting Red missing it's targets. All companies miss targets. I'm lamenting Red missing it's very public hyped up targets! If there is ANY uncertainty, don't be announcing timelines or show Epics being upgraded to Dragons in a very public tradeshow when the reality is a year+ away. And certainly, don't announce a new sensor 3 years before you can deliver... unless there is some hidden benefit (that I don't see) to being labeled/known as a company that continually does this.
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Having a Dragon in hand means I don't feel your pain... but I understand your frustration.

Yet I don't think anything needs changing.
 
Justin Kirchhoff said:
I'm in the same boat.
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I got mine semi-early because I was quick to sign up when the sign-up period was opened. I'm late getting my second update because I intentionally put some space between the two cameras so I could ensure funds availability.

I could have gotten my first one earlier IF THE DAMN WEBSITE HADN'T MADE ME RE-SIGN IN!... thus causing me a couple of minutes further in line. '-)
 
Elsie N said:
constant complaints may cause RED to quit giving us even a roadmap for future programs.

Better to not rock the boat as has been done in the past that caused RED to become more tight-lipped about future products.
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Elsie, you are very faithful to RED. My point was if RED stopped with upgrade paths and firmware updates they would loose customers as committed as you (and plenty much less committed).
There is no need to "not rock the boat" or be "grateful" as someone said in this thread. You are cutting RED a sizeable check.

Regarding roadmaps...I would worry about RED becoming more tight lipped about future products when they can be more accurate on the subject.
 
Elsie N said:
My take on what Brian was saying is that constant complaints may cause RED to quit giving us even a roadmap for future programs.

Imagine if we were just now learning there is an upgrade ready and locked down for Epic to Dragon sensor. Many of us would be without available funds to pay for such an upgrade because we wouldn't have time to plan... or the same thing for a new module.

Better to not rock the boat as has been done in the past that caused RED to become more tight-lipped about future products.
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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by D Anderson
You say not to get impatient for fear up upsetting RED?

I read comments like this a lot on REDUSER. "Don't rock the boat" - "Shhh, RED might stop giving out free updates", "they might stop the upgrade program and force us all to buy a new camera."




I mean no other brand does this and I really have benefited from the upgrade program, so logistics be damned I just hope they keep running programs such as this and although its obviously a nightmare on Reds end. So I know it can get upsetting when the roll out takes a while, but at the end of the day Id rather do this then need to resell highly depreciated bodies and buy new ones... Also I do enjoy what openness they permit us in the design and feature process, its all good stuff here, but delays are just part of the game.

In the mean time we have MX's to use, its not like we don't have cameras at all like original Red One buyers, while the M and now Carbons permit higher end places like rental houses access to models earlier for a slight premium, which truthfully I also like. I didn't say any of the wild conspiracy theories your throwing around Anderson (in the quotes, at least not to that extreme), but I remember recently when I believe Brent was saying how much easier not doing the program is on their end, just trying to show a little old gratitude for a process that is obviously much more difficult on their end then on mine. if the process bums out enough customers i do imagine they wouldn't want to do sensor upgrades and stuff like that, trade ins, so I do try to voice my appreciation for their efforts, and months from now when we all have new cams everyone will be happy as a clam. so for me the 9500 hops are really beneficial personally so between that and the insight into the pre production process i really like stuff here, heck i liked it more when they were even more open, with even worse delays cuz of the more openness...

Best of luck and hope you get your order soon!
 
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D Anderson said:
Elsie, you are very faithful to RED.
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True dat. '-).. I've never been treated better by a camera company (and I have the piles of de-valued, useless cameras in my closet to put a fine point on that statement.)

My point was if RED stopped with upgrade paths and firmware updates they would loose customers as committed as you (and plenty much less committed).
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I'm not so sure that's correct. RED cameras would likely still be the best value for my use. When I purchased two R-1s, I had no expectation of free firmware upgrades. They were, IIRC, just one of those things RED decided a pro camera company should provide for free. I have no concerns that any rocking of the boat will cause them to change that policy. If somehow they were taken over by Sony or Arri, THEN I would worry. '-)

There is no need to "not rock the boat" or be "grateful" as someone said in this thread. You are cutting RED a sizeable check.
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Maybe you are right about not rocking the boat. But if my "rocking the boat" only serves allowing me to vent, why would I ever take the chance! '-) I trust RED to proceed at the proper speed.

As Jim once said, You can have it fast, or good... choose one (or something to that effect). I choose good.


Regarding roadmaps...I would worry about RED becoming more tight lipped about future products when they can be more accurate on the subject.
Click to expand...

I can't disprove your theory, but I do like my warnings beforehand.
 
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Michael Gyori said:
I love Red and their cameras! I love their camera upgrade program! I even like that their CEO was an outspoken voice on this forum until August of last year. What I don't like is their marketing (hype) department.

Dragon was announced at NAB in 2011. At NAB 2012, Red said "Epic owners will be able to upgrade their camera to a Dragon for $6000 sometime in 2012". Unfortunately that didn't happen.
At NAB in 2013 Red actually had a 'clean' room where they were 'showing' Epics getting upgraded to Dragons. One would think that at least the early adopters would be getting their cameras in weeks. Didn't happen for 6 months (unless you were a Michael Bay or David Fincher). Now it looks like most Epic-X upgraders won't see their Dragon for a few months, with those poor Scarlet upgraders probably waiting till late summer 2014.

Red's marketing department has just been plain misleading and grossly inaccurate.... which not only frustrates many loyal customers excessively, but puts an insane amount of pressure on the valiant Red Bomb Squad team members that are tirelessly trying to pump out Dragons as fast as they can while enduring an unending barrage of questions and complaints from customers waiting almost a year for an upgrade they were led to believe was less than 2 months away.

One would think that after the excessive Scarlet delays, the Red marketing department had learned some lessons. It seems not.

I hope that Dragon's successor is not announced in 3 weeks at NAB. We all know that RED probably has something in the works. Let's hear about it when it's 99.99% ready, not 50% and 3 years away.
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Red never promised anything to Scarlet users, other than a very, very generous upgrade path to Epic - so not sure what you are whining about.
 
Elsie N said:
True dat. '-).. I've never been treated better by a camera company (and I have the piles of de-valued, useless cameras in my closet to put a fine point on that statement.)



I'm not so sure that's correct. RED cameras would likely still be the best value for my use. When I purchased two R-1s, I had no expectation of free firmware upgrades. They were, IIRC, just one of those things RED decided a pro camera company should provide for free. I have no concerns that any rocking of the boat will cause them to change that policy. If somehow they were taken over by Sony or Arri, THEN I would worry. '-)



Maybe you are right about not rocking the boat. But if my "rocking the boat" only serves allowing me to vent, why would I ever take the chance! '-) I trust RED to proceed at the proper speed.

As Jim once said, You can have it fast, or good... choose one (or something to that effect). I choose good.




I can't disprove your theory, but I do like my warnings beforehand.
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fast, cheap, or good. abel posted a meme triangle about that saying today ironically...
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Red never promised anything to Scarlet users, other than a very, very generous upgrade path to Epic - so not sure what you are whining about.
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Ummm, speaking as a previous Scarlet user that isn't true. RED promised that Scarlet was upgradeable to Dragon and that they estimated it should begin about 6 months later. I for one only purchased a Scarlet because I was promised an upgrade path. While I don't think RED has broken that promise, you can't say they didn't promise anything.
 
whether there is a scarlet dragon or not that path exists to dragon for scarlet owners...heck i'm halfway there! i wouldn't worry yet guys, wait til dragon is rolled out, and by then you may very well end up going for a full fledged dragon if budgets allow...
 
while i admit scarlet dragon news has been light lately, i don't think its indicative of anything necessarily. i am sure it will get talked about as red progresses through the dragon upgrades and initial new M sale units
 
third party recorders for at speed shooting makes a fine solution, particularly with HD SDI flags enabled so it auto rolls

i am sure if red releases one we will all know, and hopefully it can do real time over crank creation in said file codecs
 
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