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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is quick cut for TV (4k to 1080) possible?

J

JohnF

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Right, a work-flow question regarding a scenario familiar to those in TV land.

You've started shooting at 6am, finished at 5pm to then edit a 2-5min package to include in a live broadcast starting at 8pm.

Shooting with RED@4k (I'm expecting shooting to RED drives rather than CF cards) the output/deliverable is likely to be a 1080i file (probably for transmission at SD)
Let's say maybe an hour of footage.
Editing to be done in the field on laptop.
No serious grading required other than setting the footage to single white balance setting (daylight).
Fairly simple editing techniques hard cuts and dissolves etc.

Is a three hour editing window likely to be possible with 4k footage to 1080?

What kind of workflow would be required? (I know we're still waiting for REDCINE)

JohnF
 
Generating Quicktimes out of Redalert is very quick, even quicker if you use the ones generated by the camera.

The big limitation would be the ability of FCP to handle 2K QT on a laptop (haven't tested it but heard it was slow), so I guess you'd edit using the Proxy size, transfer to FCP on a desktop, relink to the 2K size QT, change your timeline settings to 1080 and then render out resizing to fit (scaling up to fit 1080 at the moment unless you're allowed to letterbox) at which point the faster the rendering of your desktop the more time you have to edit.

Sorry I'm only just getting used to FCP (been Avid/Autodesk mainly) and this might be oversimplifying it & not 100% accurate...

Also you'd probably want to be transfering off the RED drives through the day so you can start selecting takes and cutting as you go (depending on the crew/downtime situation of your shooting schedule)

That'd be my guess.
 
Until FCP or another editing system can edit Redcode QuickTimes natively like you can with ProRes or DVCPROHD, there's not much hope for it. Converting all of your files to a different codec would just eat up too much time on such a quick turn around.

-Russ
 
Russ L said:
Until FCP or another editing system can edit Redcode QuickTimes natively like you can with ProRes or DVCPROHD, there's not much hope for it. Converting all of your files to a different codec would just eat up too much time on such a quick turn around.

-Russ
Click to expand...

Uh... that day is today. Redcine processes the footage to create quicktime wrapper proxies which work natively in FCP. An upcoming build of FCP will, I think, no longer require the user to get the quicktime component from Red, it will be built right in. For now just hit your friendly Red owner up for a copy as they are the only ones with access to code on red.com

regards,

jt
 
lunacie said:
Uh... that day is today. Redcine processes the footage to create quicktime wrapper proxies which work natively in FCP. An upcoming build of FCP will, I think, no longer require the user to get the quicktime component from Red, it will be built right in. For now just hit your friendly Red owner up for a copy as they are the only ones with access to code on red.com

regards,

jt
Click to expand...

Uh, that day is not today, the REDCODE can be played in the FCP timeline as it's released now, but since you cannot render transitions, or effects in REDCODE, you would be limited to straight cuts. So not quite there yet. The updated FCP is not out yet and there is no ETA.
 
missing link

missing link

REDCINE and the updated REDCODE codec is the missing link for this workflow.
 
I would hope so too.

That said just how fast is RED alert running at the moment (for just spitting out daylight white balanced files at 1080)? (actually I don't know much about Red Alert does it even re-size?)

Is the work-flow I posed more a matter of computer technology getting faster or does REDCINE promise faster processing?

BTW Just for the record I will not want to use FCP/mac based systems. (this is not just an issue of not wanting to rely on (IMO) unreliable mac's but more an issue of wanting to use ruggedised mil-spec laptops which are only PC based)

JohnF
 
RedAlert is Mac-only...

RedCine is supposed to accellerate the processing buy throwing the GPU into the equation. RedAlert is processor based.

This post was quite enlightening for the current state of affairs:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=105563&postcount=37

AFAIK the first to address the current proccessing times.

cheers

Gunleik
 
gunleik said:
I will be testing these workflows, hopefully shortly.

Gunleik
Click to expand...
Hey Gunleik,
Do you have Redcine beta and the FCP Redcode Quicktime beta?
Would love to know.
I hear next NAB for both, are you in the beta club? a little birdie
told me some people are and are also B testing for Apple at the moment.
By invitation only. Throw us a crumb, there's a good chap.
Mezmo.
 
Unfortunately, I am not.

It would have been very good for me (and possibly for Red, too... wink - wink, nod-nod -;) if I could be, though...


Gunleik
 
Once again it looks like the HD-SDI outs might pose a solution for the faster moving world of shooting for TV.

Playback using the RED camera to a laptop/portable computer via HD-SDI and edit! (if the REDCODE TC can be included in the HD-SDI stream this would be helpful for better mastering later on if needed)

Any thoughts on this as a solution? (yes, it's not perfect!) And how good is the 4k to 1080 HD-SDI out conversion?

JohnF
 
The outputs are currently 720p and carracterized as not optimal.

They will be 1080 dual link and live with individual signals "soon"

I think the HD-SDI route sounds like a good one, but the RedCine seems even better - when it's out.

Have you had the chance to do tests in RedAlert?

Gunleik
 
A helpful table for that is here.

Uncompressed 10 bit YUV (4:2:2) High Definition (HD)

1280x720p/60fps
141MB per second
8,438MB per minute
494GB per hour

1920x1080/24fps
127MB per second
7,594MB per minute
445GB per hour

1920x1080/50i
132MB per second
7,910MB per minute
463GB per hour

1920x1080/60i
158MB per second
9,482MB per minute
556GB per hour

As you can see it's quite high! G-Speed raid systems (and others) can support such rates.

JohnF
 
That is very, very true, and a good argument, too - if it wasn't for time spent transcoding.

let's say, for arguments sake - that the transcode to prores hq from red raw, currently is 1:10 on a 4 core computer.
(I don't know the numbers but the argument is valid fo anything above 1:1, and quite relevant for anything above 1:1,5)

Uncompressed workflow from HD-SDI tap is quite established. In fact I can record 3 live uncompressed 1080 streams right here, and they will immediately be accessible for post work over the SAN.

This would theoretically look even better (pun intended -;) if one was out in the field with an io/hd which can transcode directly through HD-SDI to something like ProRes. You could pull off the same trick with a laptop. (200 mbits/sec).

I could even record to prores with the studio-rig, if I felt so inclined...

For news, that might be a good idea.

For material that needs to be composited, that might be a good plan b -,)

So, in a high throughput situation, tapping the hd-sdi's could very well be the way to go.
And - As JohnF mentions - if the HD-SDI's spit out the right timecode, one could "online" the production @ a later stage, if one isn't happy.

On the other hand:
This is theory - and I would really like to be violently corrected by someone like Gibby, TJ or yourself -;)
AND it is a matter of "current state" - all this may change, once redcine/redcode is out, so that you can playback the files directly (sans transcode) in FCP or other nle's.

Question, remains, though. Will this play back in realtime?

Uncompressed HD does.

Maybe we (untill the computers catch up) will see "log and capture" tools for Red through HD-SDI, where the cam acts as a deck/transcoder, for this very scenario?

Cheers!

Gunleik
 
I know you'd lose metadata.. but for a very quick prorez would the following not be possible ?

Put each redcode raw file from a single cf onto a timeline in fcp 2k

Playout straight cuts at 1920x1080 sdi from say a blackmagic

Another macpro with a AJA io hd or another card with fcp set to capture prores hq.

Select reels, then name them. cut into shots.. takes etc..

edit..

kinda realtime prores encoding..?? just a though.. not sure if the card would crop the 2k etc though..


S
 
I don't think currently it is possible to play a Redcode 2k proxy on an FCP timeline without rendering, so that aproach would not be real time. If you set the timeline codec to ProRes, and render it, that will create ProRes copies for you.
 
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