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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is my Scarlet-W a DSMC2 body???

J

Jim Skinner

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I’m considering the new upgrade pricing (to go from Scarlet-W to Gemini) and I saw this note on the upgrade page:

The GEMINI 5K S35 TRADE-IN FOR SCARLET-W RED DRAGON increases your shooting potential and upgrades your SCARLET-W to the RED’s DSMC2 CAMERA BRAIN.

My Scarlet-W takes the new, smaller memory cards, which I thought was the hallmark of the DSMC2 body. Is Scarlet-W not housed in a DSMC2 body? Was there a revision between the old DSMC body, with the huge media, and DSMC2? What kind of purgatory does Scarlet-W live in?

And second question (thanks for your time spent reading this, by the way) is there any chance the “new” DSMC2 body will have a better preamp than the low end preamp on the Scarlet-W? If a true DSMC2 body has better audio handling I cannot give Red my money fast enough.
 
Haha. That's what I thought too. I thought the DSMC2 body was just the new smaller one in contrast to the older Epic Dragon body with bigger memory cards.
Sorry I don't have an answer.
 
It’s a wording situation. The Scarlet-W and even the Red Raven have the DSMC 2 body form factor. So even though it is clearer now, it’s still a bit confusing because of these two brains. Actually for the new “DSMC 2” brains it’s simply that the Weapon body is now being used for all the other sensors which are not Dragon.

For my taste it might have been easier to understand to just stick with Weapon for the naming convention. Going back to Epic to have the old Epic-Scarlet naming scheme would have been nice, but might have been confusing for weapon owners.

I think there’s still some room for improvement on the naming front at RED ;)
 
Agree DSMC2 is still confusing for the lingering cameras that don't have the unified horsepower. Weapon as a name is also being dropped. I'm happy about that. That always raised eyebrows discussing cameras with producers.
 
Glad I'm not the only one confused about this. We have a DSMC2 body already, I thought with the Epic-W Helium!

Man, I'll be happy when RED gets this stuff sorted out. Body, brain, sensors, boards...all with different names. And then to stick a "W" on our Epic, though it's not actually a Weapon? Whew...confusing.
 
Well actually it would’ve been ok if it’s just being reduced to the sensor name only, which it actually is. The brain now defines itself through sensor only.
Only thing is that they need to be able to differentiate the same sensor with DSMC 3 later on. But the DSMC 2 is more of a side note than the actual title. Referring to the cameras as Monstro, Helium and Gemini actually works now. Until new sensors come along with more K. ;)
 
Sales info states Scarlet W is a DSMC2 body

Sales info states Scarlet W is a DSMC2 body

The mystery continues... I dug up the launch material for the Scarlet W, and Red claimed at the time that it was a DSMC2 body. That was one of its selling points, you’d have access to the sensors created for the DSMC2 body. Now the Gemini upgrade material says you need to trade in WHATEVER the Scarlet W body is to upgrade yourself to DSMC2+Gemini.

I was strongly considering the Gemini upgrade (from Scarlet W), but then this kind of nonsense makes me think the Gemini upgrade is really priced wrong. The Gemini upgrade should just be the cost of the sensor (not sensor + new body). That was the promise of Scarlet W, which Red did not keep.

By this logic, a $13k charge for a 5k sensor is kind of nuts. An entire 4K camera package from Canon is $10k, and that unit actually has a useable sound subsystem. I really don’t understand current Gemini pricing considering that 2 years ago a 16.5 stop DR camera from Red that shoots 5k was priced at $10k for the body + sensor. The SAME BODY (if we are to believe the Scarlet W product page) and an extra 3200 iso mode costs $24k new today ($13k upgrade).

Compared to current pricing the Scarlet W was the deal of the century, so I do want to say thank you for this awesome camera. Also thanks for the IPP2 pipeline, that added a lot of value for me. But I’m a pass on the “upgrade” to DSMC2, I’m pretty sure I already paid for that body.
 
Jim Skinner said:
The mystery continues... I dug up the launch material for the Scarlet W, and Red claimed at the time that it was a DSMC2 body. That was one of its selling points, you’d have access to the sensors created for the DSMC2 body. Now the Gemini upgrade material says you need to trade in WHATEVER the Scarlet W body is to upgrade yourself to DSMC2+Gemini.

I was strongly considering the Gemini upgrade (from Scarlet W), but then this kind of nonsense makes me think the Gemini upgrade is really priced wrong. The Gemini upgrade should just be the cost of the sensor (not sensor + new body). That was the promise of Scarlet W, which Red did not keep.

By this logic, a $13k charge for a 5k sensor is kind of nuts. An entire 4K camera package from Canon is $10k, and that unit actually has a useable sound subsystem. I really don’t understand current Gemini pricing considering that 2 years ago a 16.5 stop DR camera from Red that shoots 5k was priced at $10k for the body + sensor. The SAME BODY (if we are to believe the Scarlet W product page) and an extra 3200 iso mode costs $24k new today ($13k upgrade).

Compared to current pricing the Scarlet W was the deal of the century, so I do want to say thank you for this awesome camera. Also thanks for the IPP2 pipeline, that added a lot of value for me. But I’m a pass on the “upgrade” to DSMC2, I’m pretty sure I already paid for that body.
Click to expand...

Scarlet-W IS a Weapon with DSMC2 body. I think that the upgrade to Gemini include some electronics too but even if Jarred sayd that the math it's nonsense i agree with you.
 
The DSMC2 (Digital Stills & Motion Camera, 2nd gen) is a family of camera body(brain) form factor.

So all the cameras - Scarlet-W, Epic-W, Weapon CF where DSMC2 style cameras. But their internals where different in terms of processing power, hence the old naming scheme.

All these names are now dead/replaced and there is only one camera body called DSMC2 that has the performance of the former Weapon.

Scarlet-W - doesn't exist anymore
Epic-W - doesn't exist anymore

and the Weapon changed it's name to DSMC2.

Now you can get the same body (now named DSMC2) with the same internals and the same processing power that used to be called Weapon (with Weapon specs) and the 3 types of sensors - Gemini, Helium, Monstro.

And now you have:

DSMC2 - Helium, DSMC2 - Monstro, DSMC2 - Gemini
 
Andrei: as of today, they still do list the Scarlet-W as a Dragon, same as Raven is a Dragon: http://www.red.com/products

It's confusing because they list "DSMC2" at the top when it should actually be below the 3 brain names.

Scarlet-W/Raven = Dragon (which work with DSMC2 accessories)

Monstro/Helium/Gemini = DSMC2 Unified (which work with DSMC2 accessories)
 
Andrei Goaga said:
The DSMC2 (Digital Stills & Motion Camera, 2nd gen) is a family of camera body(brain) form factor.

So all the cameras - Scarlet-W, Epic-W, Weapon CF where DSMC2 style cameras. But their internals where different in terms of processing power, hence the old naming scheme.

All these names are now dead/replaced and there is only one camera body called DSMC2 that has the performance of the former Weapon.

Scarlet-W - doesn't exist anymore
Epic-W - doesn't exist anymore

and the Weapon changed it's name to DSMC2.

Now you can get the same body (now named DSMC2) with the same internals and the same processing power that used to be called Weapon (with Weapon specs) and the 3 types of sensors - Gemini, Helium, Monstro.

And now you have:

DSMC2 - Helium, DSMC2 - Monstro, DSMC2 - Gemini
Click to expand...


I keep seeing people say the Scarlet is discontinued or is now gone but RED has not said that at all
 
Adam Brian Dada said:
Andrei: as of today, they still do list the Scarlet-W as a Dragon, same as Raven is a Dragon: http://www.red.com/products
Click to expand...

Darius Lyles said:
I keep seeing people say the Scarlet is discontinued or is now gone but RED has not said that at all
Click to expand...


*Ah, sorry. When I checked I didn't see that page. Just clicked on Products - DSMC2 cameras and saw the only 3 new options. So I thought they stopped selling the Scarlet-W.

But it looks like they did stop selling the Epic-W, right?
 
Yep, if you go to the Epic product page: http://www.red.com/products/epic

it takes you to the DSMC2 product page automatically.

Epic is gone. Scarlet-W and Raven are both still there- assuming they're just going to be the entry level entrants into the RED DSMC2 accessory world but won't have the flexibility that the DSMC2 brains have.

Hopefully when DSMC3 comes around RED will standardize on naming and features.
 
Jim Skinner said:
I’m considering the new upgrade pricing (to go from Scarlet-W to Gemini) and I saw this note on the upgrade page:

The GEMINI 5K S35 TRADE-IN FOR SCARLET-W RED DRAGON increases your shooting potential and upgrades your SCARLET-W to the RED’s DSMC2 CAMERA BRAIN.

My Scarlet-W takes the new, smaller memory cards, which I thought was the hallmark of the DSMC2 body. Is Scarlet-W not housed in a DSMC2 body? Was there a revision between the old DSMC body, with the huge media, and DSMC2? What kind of purgatory does Scarlet-W live in?

And second question (thanks for your time spent reading this, by the way) is there any chance the “new” DSMC2 body will have a better preamp than the low end preamp on the Scarlet-W? If a true DSMC2 body has better audio handling I cannot give Red my money fast enough.
Click to expand...

"RED’s DSMC2 CAMERA BRAIN" is something new that takes all available sensors, You can swap sensor. your scarlet W in curent state can not do that.
 
I understand that the recent changes were done to simplify a convoluted product line, however now we also have DSMC2 Unified, as well as two straggler cameras (Raven & S-W) that are only partially DSMC2 now. It's even more confusing than it used to be.

I understand the intent and respect the approach, however I think it would have made a lot more sense to just live with the existing mess, and wait until DSMC3 to go with a unified body.

Either way, the cameras are amazing. Personally I'm waiting for DSMC3 to upgrade, as I feel Gemini is the future, yet can't justify doubling the price of my camera just to get dual ISO. Hopefully they will have a VV version by then.
 
Red always had an entry level camera called Scarlet. Lesser fps, lesser power. But that worked/works for many of us.
I hope they'll retain the line. Maybe, when they stop manufacturing Dragon sensors all together, they'll come up with something with the existing sensors.
Will wait and watch.
 
So, you’re saying if I upgrade to Gemini, all of my current DSMC2 components (V-Mount I/O, LCD, Mini-Mags, etc.) will work? I won’t need to upgrade those too will I?
 
Yep, it's a DSMC2

dsmc2.jpg
 
This means the current upgrade material that says, essentially “upgrade to Gemini or Helium to get to DSMC2” is misrepresenting the Scarlet-W body horribly. Scarlet-W owners are supposed to already be there.

I was sold on the idea that future DSMC2 sensors would be an easy upgrade for my modern Scarlet-W body. With the huge upgrade cost to the Gemini or Helium models this is clearly not the case. Red has priced themselves out of my departmental budget. And they’ve also burned goodwill by not following through on the Scarlet-W promise of “upgrade path”. The “upgrade”’ cost is what I would expect a brand new camera with these specs to cost.
 
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