Is it worth buying red at this point??

[greg filipkowski]

Is it worth buying red at this point?? I produce lots of local tv spots, and thinking of stepping up the game from 5d, and thinking is it worth it?
(Not that it is better, offcoure red is better(ROI)
The local market wont spend anymore if I come with red or 5d, so I feel maybe the only way to get return on investment is to rent it, when not used.

Any good objective opinions, or someone that went thru this dilemma.:crying:
Example
http://www.vimeo.com/8909329
Long Island NY

 

[Pawel Achtel]

It would be unrealistic to offer RED body for hire end expect a reasonable return. To offer hire equipment you need to provide a whole package, support and add value.

As to what camera to satisfy your current production needs? Well, you have answered it. If 5D is good enough, it is at least an order of a magnitude cheaper than Red One. If it does the job, why not? There is nothing wrong with being economical and practical.

Sorry, but I don't think there is a big market for Red One body rental, unless it comes with established customer base and comprehensive range of accessories. Even then it can be a cut-throat business.

However, if you need a cinema camera with professional features and picture quality, welll...that's a different story.

 

[D Fuller]

Is it worth buying red at this point?? I produce lots of local tv spots, and thinking of stepping up the game from 5d, and thinking is it worth it?
The local market wont spend anymore if I come with red or 5d, so I feel maybe the only way to get return on investment is to rent it, when not used.
Long Island NY

Yes. But not for rental. (Consider that gravy if you can.)

I went through this decision a while ago. I live in a place where there is not much opportunity for rental, and the economics are much as you describe them. But Red had improved what I am able to provide my clients, and that's good for my business.

My Red One has paid for itself, but it has not made a lot of money. On the other hand, in a down economy I have done well because my clients know I will deliver excellent quality. That has always been part of my brand, and Red is part of that. ROI is not simply getting rental fees for the camera; If you are able to get or maintain clients because the quality of your work improves, that is ROI as well.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I agree with David. If the RED will help you expand your business and provide you with things the 5D just can't, then you might be able to justify the large investment. The question you have to ask yourself is whether this is the time to do it. If you can keep working with the 5D and rent a RED when needed, then once Scarlet hits, that may be a camera to have a look at. It might be the sweet spot for you and the type of work you do. Let me say this. I still believe that a RED One Mysterium (yes I did leave the M-X off) can and will do fine work for several years to come. You could do excellent commercials with it and be happy for quite a while. A RED One M-X is even better and will last a little longer. As long as you have the choice of camera when you shoot, there is no issue. An Epic will be in high demand at some point, and will get a lot of the rental market due to the advantages over Red One. So, something to consider if you're thinking of renting your camera out.

Basically, this comes down to this:

1. What do you need right now to keep your clients happy and bring in new clients?
2. If you invest in a RED, do you absolutely need the rental income to justify it? If so, have you researched your market and is it in need of cameras?
3. What accessories will you need to support your RED? Camera packages vary based on the needs and there's almost no such thing as a standard RED package. Will you opt for still lenses, perhaps utilizing your Canon glass? Will you go with something like the Birger mount? What about tripod, mattebox, follow focus, etc. Will your purchase this stuff or rent?

I think when you break down the numbers and factor in what you know about your business and market, you'll be able to see if it's worth taking a shot. I mentioned Scarlet earlier. The one thing to consider is that there is no indication right now when that will hit the market. That should factor into the decision as well.

Best of luck with whatever you decide. The car commercial looked good, so adding a RED to your arsenal would sure be nice, but looks like you are doing fine without it as well.

 

[ericyoung]

OR buy a secondhand kit - still a substantial investment, but not quite such a reach. Plus no backordered parts.

 

[greg filipkowski]

Very interesting

Very interesting

First, Thank you for helping out.
Very Solid points you guys are making, I would definitely offer the whole package.

1)The next question is, Used or brand new, in my opinion it has to be mx, I don't want to light everything (car showrooms at night for example)

2)Lenses, still nikons or lomo pl mount?

My canon prime lenses are electronically controlled so I dont think I can control them with red.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Greg, to answer your questions.

1. Unless you get a great deal, buy new. Price will be higher for M-X but certainly justified if you need those extra stops.

2. Depends on which lenses and the condition. If you find a set of Lomos that are optically and mechanically in great shape, probably better to go that route. I use Nikon for my personal projects and they are great. Some limitations mechanically but otherwise fine.

3. Canon lenses can be controlled by Birger Mount on Red. You'll probably need about a week to catch up on the history of that one. But here is the info.
http://www.birger.com/
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5985

 

[Rob Ruffo]

You should not only be thinking about your bottom line right now, but also about where higher quality work will take you in the future. Not to mention clients tend to me much, much more positive about seeing a nice big Red on their sets than a 5D.

You will be able to charge a wee bit extra for that, sometimes a lot extra.

We don't rent our Red very often, but it certainly paid for itself very, very quickly - on the one side, saved rentals, on the other better work leads to better gigs, which leads to even better work and so on. We also do take the time to go out and test all kinds things, which we wouldn't if it were a rental. To have such deep Red mastery would have cost us a fortune.

Red MX is an excellent camera, and when Epic comes out it will still be an excellent camera eons better in terms of image quality than anything else out there - with Alexa being a reasonable competitor and of course Epic even better. Its' rare that I find myself NEEDING Epic to come out, only because our MX Red is so good - before MX I dreamed of more light sensitivity, but now that's been 100% solved. Of course, we will always want more dynamic range, but MX gives you way enough, 95% of the time. By contrast, a 5D will make a mess 60% of the time - there's so much you can't shoot with it, and people are starting to tire of its look which always screams "5D" RED MX can look like lots of things, and only highly seasoned pros can pick it out as non-film - even they are sometimes stumped. I think rare is the idiot who can't tell that 5D isn't film, even amongst viewers.

That said, rental is not a very good business unless you have very, very deep pockets and lots of connections.

Call Erik at Birger...

 

[PatC]

There is never a bad time to buy a red, but I do agree with Pawell.

 

[ericyoung]

If you go the Canon Birger Mount route, be aware that fitting it will invalidate the warranty of any new Red camera.

On a secondhand executed or out-of-warranty Red, you can do what you like of course!

 

[albert rudnicki]

Greg,
Rent the Red, show your clients the difference. If they still want 5d, fire them
Personally, I will sale my 5D soon, very soon, so I never have to use it as a video cam.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

The local market wont spend anymore if I come with red or 5d, so I feel maybe the only way to get return on investment is to rent it, when not used.

To rent or buy is a separate issue. Do the math, but don't expect many rentals if at all.

To shoot Red or not is an absolute no brainer. You should be shooting Red yesterday. There really is no competitor to the Red that delivers the same quality and resolution dollar for dollar.

As for the quality issue in the eyes of your clients... If you know what you're doing, the Red will give your work increased real world quality and perceived value. Ours is an image-driven culture, will it hurt your chances of finding and keeping new clients if word gets out that you won't shoot on anything but the best for their projects?

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I've had some DP's tell me they couldn't rent the Red One out
much anymore because it didn't have the MX upgrade. (One
was in Toronto, the other in LA.)

Still, I think the rental houses have non-upgraded Reds that
they successfully rent out. But that's the difference -- they
are established places with inventory, huge ranges of
accessories, and backups if anything goes wrong. Hard for
little guys to compete with that.

Another issues is lenses -- many DP's and renters can be
fairly snobby about lenses. Even though the RPP's are an
amazing value ... renters often want lens from one of the
most established manufacturers like Zeiss, Cooke, etc.

Obviously, the Red MX is an UNBELIEVABLY camera capable
of shooting blockbuster feature films, the 5D is not. But if it's
getting you buy, I would save up for an Epic or Scarlet -- they
will be the "hot" cameras of next year and the DSLR's will
not be as cool anymore.

Anthony

 

[Stephen Williams]

Another issues is lenses -- many DP's and renters can be
fairly snobby about lenses. Anthony

Have you ever thought that some 'Snobby DP's' prefer to rent so they can choose the lenses (and camera) that best suit the project in hand.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Have you ever thought that some 'Snobby DP's' prefer to rent so they can choose the lenses (and camera) that best suit the project in hand.

Sure, but Red MX is extremely versatile. if you work in some areas, like music video, it would be extremely rare to find a project that is not best suited by Red MX.

Exceptions might be needing to hide a camera is a dangerous area and not attract attention, needing to put a camera on a helmet, etc - but these come up rarely.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Sure, but Red MX is extremely versatile. if you work in some areas, like music video, it would be extremely rare to find a project that is not best suited by Red MX.

Exceptions might be needing to hide a camera is a dangerous area and not attract attention, needing to put a camera on a helmet, etc - but these come up rarely.

Although I agree that most music videos could be shot on RED and look great in the right hands, there is also the art of it and sometimes that requires using the tools the are most appropriate to achieving the vision of the director, DP, etc. That could be Super 8, 16mm, 35mm, 70mm film or it could be a fisher price camera. RED is very versatile. But it won't be everyone's cup of tea and it won't be right for every job. I find that RED M-X can achieve a lot of looks when choosing lenses, filters, and post processing that achieves the specific look you are going for. But hard to simulate certain looks that are just better achieved using the actual medium.

I will say that there are a lot of music videos shot on the RED. There's no denying that.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Although I agree that most music videos could be shot on RED and look great in the right hands, there is also the art of it and sometimes that requires using the tools the are most appropriate to achieving the vision of the director, DP, etc. That could be Super 8, 16mm, 35mm, 70mm film or it could be a fisher price camera. RED is very versatile. But it won't be everyone's cup of tea and it won't be right for every job. I find that RED M-X can achieve a lot of looks when choosing lenses, filters, and post processing that achieves the specific look you are going for. But hard to simulate certain looks that are just better achieved using the actual medium.

I will say that there are a lot of music videos shot on the RED. There's no denying that.

Sure, but Super 8 etc. is a rare thing - a heavy special effect - use it when you need it. Kind of like a Promist #2. For general shooting terrain, MX tends to work very, very often, more like a Classic Soft 1/2.

35 film cannot be beat, but how many music videos have that much money? And Imax, well, I've yet to get my hands on that kind of budget, and I'd hate to have to put an Imax cam on a jib with our 6-12 man crews.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Sure, but Super 8 etc. is a rare thing - a heavy special effect - use it when you need it. Kind of like a Promist #2. For general shooting terrain, MX tends to work very, very often, more like a Classic Soft 1/2.

35 film cannot be beat, but how many music videos have that much money? And Imax, well, I've yet to get my hands on that kind of budget, and I'd hate to have to put an Imax cam on a jib with our 6-12 man crews.

I left a couple of cameras out intentionally. I think you know which ones. Doesn't matter though, RED is certainly everywhere and with Epic and Scarlet, that could become even more evident.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Those other cameras give you low-cost (but not if you factor in lost set-time, lost shots, etc., then they are in fact extremely expensive), light weight very small size and stealth, at the cost of extreme compromises in other areas.

Again, maybe one shot in 100 is really best-suited to those other cameras.

AN EX1 with a Nanoflash is often useful for deep depth of field in tough run and gun situations with long walks in high heat, or on day 14 of a small crew non-fiction travel-shoot, where everyone is so sore and tired that we need a break. The Ex1 and Nano enable us to get a lot of little b-roll bits nonetheless, bits that are safe and broadcast friendly and look very clean if shot properly.

Those situations, at least for us, come up much more often than the other camera situations.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Those other cameras give you low-cost (but not if you factor in lost set-time, lost shots, etc., then they are in fact extremely expensive), light weight very small size and stealth, at the cost of extreme compromises in other areas.

If only producers agreed with you.

But they're coming around a bit. Epic and Scarlet will probably reverse the trend.

Rob, I do get what you are saying and I feel RED is the best cost/performance ratio in the industry. I was just trying to point out that sometimes, the choice of camera/format has to do with other factors. For all I know though, maybe 90% of all commercial music videos are shot on RED these days. I know a lot of them are for sure.