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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is it allowed to show brands in an indy? without permission

Mike Brent said:
So in Borat, for example, every single person was signed on a release, including the people he just walked by in the street? For example all the people in the background of this picture?

http://marksilva.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/20061103borat.jpg

I don't think so.......
Click to expand...

This picture was from a scene inside a wrestling match (or similar).

Whenever I am filming an event, the tickets always say that by entering, the audience consents to being filmed.
 
Mike Brent said:
Its strange that you need to ask permission to show a logo, but Pizza Hut and Dominos have these ads that say "they suck, our pizzas are better" etc etc, using the other companies name and I think even logos etc.
Click to expand...

Criticism and review.

michael zaletel said:
What do people say about Logorama? The Academy sure doesn't seem to mind Independent filmmakers using brands without permission.

Uses over 2,500 major brand logos and many in disparaging ways.
Click to expand...

Parody and satire.

---

IANAL but I've been on the fx side of removing logos in the past. My understanding is that it follows similarly to the fair use allowances:

"Commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship."

There have to be allowances for trademark usage in criticism otherwise you would never be able to refer to the company you're reviewing. "The pop which comes in a blue can with a circular logo tastes bad." But you have to be very very very careful that everything you say is 100% accurate. See: AT&T vs Verizon.

Removing logos is a pain. Our pain is your budget. Only shoot logos when there is no way to obscure it or prepare yourself for a huge post-budget.
 
From my own experience as a filmmaker and researcher, get permission from everyone in front of and behind the camera and get it signed. Anything within the frame must be created by you, or with a signed release. Owning a photocopy of a painting does not give you permission to put that photocopy in your movie without the artist or their estates permission. If it's a local artist or you have an in to get a signed release, cool. If not, find a local artist and put their cleared work on the walls for the shoot. Parody does NOT protect you. Always ask nicely, clearly, and listen, and then get it in writing BEFORE doing anything creative. Some people hate contracts and refuse to sign them. If they won't sign, accept it and do not proceed with any of their talents. Your project will be under a dark cloud of potential lawsuit if there's no contract. It will cost you money in E&O insurance. There is a real financial burden to no contracts.

I made a short comedy called "Jumpista" with an Italian visual artist Enrico Corte at an artist's retreat (Atlantic Center for the Arts, FL) back in 1999. He used his real name, and played a fake version of himself- a petulant performance artists who's mode of expression was jumping in place. In reality, Enrico is a noted painter who has assisted artist like Joel Peter Witkins and has been in the Venice Biennale. In the movie, it was all in fun. Everyone was happy. Handshakes, not contracts. It was a mockumentary played straight. Perhaps too straight.

I posted to youtube and forgot about it. It got all of 400 views.

Unfortunately, someone in Italian National Television didn't get the joke. They produced a program on Italian Artists, did a search of Enrico Corte, and Jumpista came up in the top 5. They cut portions of a satirical rant to be fact, and broadcast it to the Italian public. Enrico was upset. A lifetime of work as a painter, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot who jumps in place. He had a lawyer contact the producer, who agreed to alter the program. Alas, the old version was nationally broadcast 2 more times.

I found out about all this after the fact. Why? F-king News doesn't HAVE to get my permission to use publicly available - You Tube - content. Had they contacted me, I could've said "It's a joke." I would've said "no." But they are NEWS. They are afforded those protections. If it was an independent producer, Enrico would've sued.

In the end, Enrico had little power but to have Italian youtube pull it down. I can't do anything with the video because of this embarassment, and worse, I have no contract with Enrico. Just a handshake. He remembers the project to be simply for a 1x screening for a private audience. He did it as a favor to me, not that he even liked the project to begin with. I shared a film by credit with all participants. They want their names off it. All the things I loved about Jumpista, well, Enrico hates.

People change. Satire doesn't cover it. You see it all the time when scandals erupt- ironic photos misinterpreted as factual endorsement.

Contracts with express permissions and consent are your only safeguard. In the grand scheme of things, it was a short film that shot for 1 day, edited for 2 weeks, got me screenings and multiple grants. It was only meant to be seen. Now, it can't be seen at all unless I go back, fireup the G4 450, Premiere 6, and remember how I cut it in the first place in order to make the necessary alterations.

Love yourself and make your filmmaking sustainable. Get contracts signed, every page initialed. Most folks won't read the contract. Half of marriages end in divorce, and they're loving and sleeping with each other. Films are really a one sided affair. If it's not on paper, it doesn't exist. Good luck!
 
Thanks for sharing that, Anthony. It's very sad that it turned out like it did for you.

Hopefully others will take a lesson from your account. It should serve as a fair warning to anyone thinking they can get away without written agreements.
 
Anthony Torres said:
From my own experience as a filmmaker and researcher, get permission from everyone in front of and behind the camera and get it signed. Anything within the frame must be created by you, or with a signed release. Owning a photocopy of a painting does not give you permission to put that photocopy in your movie without the artist or their estates permission. If it's a local artist or you have an in to get a signed release, cool. If not, find a local artist and put their cleared work on the walls for the shoot. Parody does NOT protect you. Always ask nicely, clearly, and listen, and then get it in writing BEFORE doing anything creative. Some people hate contracts and refuse to sign them. If they won't sign, accept it and do not proceed with any of their talents. Your project will be under a dark cloud of potential lawsuit if there's no contract. It will cost you money in E&O insurance. There is a real financial burden to no contracts.

I made a short comedy called "Jumpista" with an Italian visual artist Enrico Corte at an artist's retreat (Atlantic Center for the Arts, FL) back in 1999. He used his real name, and played a fake version of himself- a petulant performance artists who's mode of expression was jumping in place. In reality, Enrico is a noted painter who has assisted artist like Joel Peter Witkins and has been in the Venice Biennale. In the movie, it was all in fun. Everyone was happy. Handshakes, not contracts. It was a mockumentary played straight. Perhaps too straight.

I posted to youtube and forgot about it. It got all of 400 views.

Unfortunately, someone in Italian National Television didn't get the joke. They produced a program on Italian Artists, did a search of Enrico Corte, and Jumpista came up in the top 5. They cut portions of a satirical rant to be fact, and broadcast it to the Italian public. Enrico was upset. A lifetime of work as a painter, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot who jumps in place. He had a lawyer contact the producer, who agreed to alter the program. Alas, the old version was nationally broadcast 2 more times.

I found out about all this after the fact. Why? F-king News doesn't HAVE to get my permission to use publicly available - You Tube - content. Had they contacted me, I could've said "It's a joke." I would've said "no." But they are NEWS. They are afforded those protections. If it was an independent producer, Enrico would've sued.

In the end, Enrico had little power but to have Italian youtube pull it down. I can't do anything with the video because of this embarassment, and worse, I have no contract with Enrico. Just a handshake. He remembers the project to be simply for a 1x screening for a private audience. He did it as a favor to me, not that he even liked the project to begin with. I shared a film by credit with all participants. They want their names off it. All the things I loved about Jumpista, well, Enrico hates.

People change. Satire doesn't cover it. You see it all the time when scandals erupt- ironic photos misinterpreted as factual endorsement.

Contracts with express permissions and consent are your only safeguard. In the grand scheme of things, it was a short film that shot for 1 day, edited for 2 weeks, got me screenings and multiple grants. It was only meant to be seen. Now, it can't be seen at all unless I go back, fireup the G4 450, Premiere 6, and remember how I cut it in the first place in order to make the necessary alterations.

Love yourself and make your filmmaking sustainable. Get contracts signed, every page initialed. Most folks won't read the contract. Half of marriages end in divorce, and they're loving and sleeping with each other. Films are really a one sided affair. If it's not on paper, it doesn't exist. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Just one note, however. The situation you note is not satire, it is fiction. If Enrico were a famous artist who paints only cows (or something) and SNL did a silly skit making fun of him, THAT would be satire and they wouldn't worry about it. It's what they DO! In your case, regardless of Enrico's real life, you were creating a fictional piece about a fictional character named Enrico. Unfortunately, Enrico decided to use his real name in playing the part which caused confusion. Equally unfortunate was your decision not to get a contract, as I am sure you are too painfully aware. As you basically said, for something like this, "get it in writing!"
 
Parody v. Satire

There's an important distinction here that's getting cloudy. Legally, parody and satire are two different things. The difference concerns the target of the parody.

A parody targets the person who's work you are incorporating.

A satire targets something else, and you appropriate a third party's work in it. This is a no-no.

Satire is not protected under fair use. Parody is.

So, you must target the person you are stealing from (sort of a double whammy on them).
 
It's pretty ironic that Coke would pay millions for product placement in one film, and then want to sue someone for showing up free of charge in another.

Obviously if the film is called "Coke is poison" I could understand, but if I'm making a romantic comedy about puppies and someone is drinking Coke in the background, are you really saying that Coke will be mad that I didn't pay them and sue me?

And I'm guessing Tom's Restaurant's business would have only been positively influenced by showing up in Seinfeld. If I owned it I wouldn't be squabbling over royalties, I'd be pretty happy about getting free international advertising 200 times a day around the world and beg them to show the full sign.

Bizarre world we live in...
 
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