Is Helium really better? A Dragon owner is asking

[Christoffer Glans]

Actually 6K is just over the Standard 35mm (non-Super35) frame width.

This says Epic-W 6K FF is 80.67fps max and 22.43x11.83mm sensor size
http://phfx.com/tools/REDFormatKey/REDFormatKey.cgi?camera=REDEpicW8KHelium&format=all

What workflow demands are you referring to? Theoretically for 8k vs 6K you should be able to just use higher compression and edit with a lower quality ratio and get essentially the same post performance but yes full quality renders may be slower.

Storage of 8K files is larger and yes 8K files is more demanding on processing both for VFX and grading. When it comes to the crop, it's a crop factor of x1.33 so I'd say it's pretty significant. At 5K 100 fps it's even higher at x1.6. Meaning you can't shoot wider angles with shorter depth of field on Helium. Not so great for commercials.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

That's an odd statement to make since the majority of commercials are shot on 35mm sensors, so why would suddenly a 35mm sensor be inadequate for commercials?

 

[Michael Tiemann]

That's an odd statement to make since the majority of commercials are shot on 35mm sensors, so why would suddenly a 35mm sensor be inadequate for commercials?

I think Christopher is pointing out that when your definition of HFR can only be reached with 5K image resolutions, 5K on Helium is substantially smaller than S35. 5K on DRAGON is pretty much S35.

 

[Bruce Schultz]

Get them both and be covered for every situation.

I've got my fingers on my lotto ticket just waiting for that last Powerball to drop . . .

 

[Stacey Spears]

I would say buy one and rent the other when you need it. I own a VV and can rent a Helium when needed. There are plenty around.

 

[Michael Dalton]

I'd be interested in hearing peoples comparisons of helium vs vista for those who have tried them both. I know only one person who has tried both and raving about VV. I'm hoping my is not too far off, but it will be a trade off between the low light and wide field of view for my needs. I find helium does not handle highlights as well as weapon dragon does, but unsure of vista.

 

[Neil Dearman]

my biggest complaint is the punch in when you go to 6K, on most my shoots we try to do 6K/5K but using a 8k Sensor it punches in. I have both the Epic W and Helium 8K and the Helium is better choice because of the higher frame rates. I truly miss my Scar W, to me that is the perfect camera for most productions and was my most used rental item.

 

[David Litchfield]

If Red made a 6k S35 Helium it would be their bestseller.

 

[Nick Morrison]

my biggest complaint is the punch in when you go to 6K, on most my shoots we try to do 6K/5K but using a 8k Sensor it punches in. I have both the Epic W and Helium 8K and the Helium is better choice because of the higher frame rates. I truly miss my Scar W, to me that is the perfect camera for most productions and was my most used rental item.

Yup I think Scarlet W is sleeper hit of RED lineup.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

If Red made a 6k S35 Helium it would be their bestseller.

I'd add to that - Helium technology and fusion of all gathered knowledge and experience used in:

1) S16: ~ 4K (current pixel pitch)
2) S35: 6K (larger pixel pitch)
3) Leica FF: 8K
4) S35: 4K (largest pixel pitch, best sensitivity, DR and most efficient workflow)
5) Leica FF: 6K

Because acquisition resolution & pixel pitch affect:

a) aesthetic
b) image performance in extremes (highlight performance, sensitivity & shadow performance)
c) workflow

4K is sufficient for cinematic storytelling and big screen, 8K is around the point of diminishing returns and makes resolution factor a thing of the past, giving a most realistic, organic and spatial quantization-free looking image, and everything between 4K to 8K can be a creative choice for the best tool for the job, while harvesting the advantage of high quality VBR compressed 16 bit Redcode RAW.

 

[Neil Dearman]

well RED gives you more pixels and thats how they fix the noise/add more low light so if they do a 6k S35 you will not have the same lowlight capabilities/less noise. Love the images at 8k but kills the cards!!!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

That's an odd statement to make since the majority of commercials are shot on 35mm sensors, so why would suddenly a 35mm sensor be inadequate for commercials?

Nope, that was what I meant. Majority of commercials are shot on 35mm, so if people want high speed or HFR or harder to get; HFR in high speed, then Helium must be cropped down by almost half which isn't s35mm anymore. So if anyone want a 25mm shot as it looks on a 6K Dragon but with 82fps and 8K, then it's not possible.

If Red made a 6k S35 Helium it would be their bestseller.

There is... Dragon 6K on a Weapon. It's the increase in pixels that makes it have lesser noise, color wise they are so close that it's almost identical in the end. The jump between MX and Dragon was much much more noticeable.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I have a Dragon 6K CF and I am getting a Helium 8K as an upgrade from my MG Weapon. I was planning on moving all my cameras to Helium but I'm not so sure now, I might just keep the Weapon 6K CF and have one of each, but until my Helium 8K comes (TOMORROW!!!!) and I get some time with it I can't be sure what I'll do. I am fortunate to have the option to have both if I want to. I am curious how well they would cut together in a multi cam situation. Anyone else out there planning on keeping both?

 

[David Litchfield]

There is... Dragon 6K on a Weapon. It's the increase in pixels that makes it have lesser noise, color wise they are so close that it's almost identical in the end. The jump between MX and Dragon was much much more noticeable.

I think its the new sensor technology that has less noise and allows them to cram in more pixels. 6k helium s35 would be even more sensitive. Judging by some of the rental rates of the 8K, nobody is interested in that.

 

[Stacey Spears]

There is... Dragon 6K on a Weapon. It's the increase in pixels that makes it have lesser noise

I am probably misunderstanding you, so I apologize, but it is not the increase in pixels that is lowering noise on Helium, its the sensor tech.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I am probably misunderstanding you, so I apologize, but it is not the increase in pixels that is lowering noise on Helium, its the sensor tech.

Yes but some folks are noticing at 6K Helium performs similarly to Weapon 6K at least in terms of noise, color and DR. Maybe not identical, but similar.

Suggesting that at 8K the full sensor downsampling by Helium is helping a lot with noise.

That said, my gut tells me Helium is cleaner, pixel for pixel.

However I do think the downsampling is an additional factor for Helium helping with noise.

 

[Stacey Spears]

However I do think the downsampling is an additional factor for Helium helping with noise.

Helps Dragon too. 8K to 4K is a nice ratio to scale as well. Even lower quality scaling engines do better with a nice ratio.

 

[Mark Toia]

MILES BETTER !!!..

Low light mainly.

At 320 ISO on both cameras as master 4k. Cant see any difference. But its well worth having that extra few stops when you get into stick low light situations.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Are there any side by side highlight tests between Dragon Weapon 6K and Helium Weapon 8K at lowest compression at 24?

I can see that it's definitely better in low light situations, but it'd be cool to see how the Helium is handling highlights in comparison to the Dragon sensor.

Does anyone own both and want to set them next to each other and do some exterior side by sides?

 

[Simon Buxton]

I have both but only using UW-OLPF in them so the colour would seem off above water. If an underwater test is needed let me know!