Is Helium really better? A Dragon owner is asking

[Michael Tiemann]

Sounds about right. $15k+ to go from Epic Dragon to Epic-W for a very subtle increase in low light ability?

It was more than $15K to go from EPIC DRAGON to WEAPON DRAGON. The noise improvement was dramatic, even if it was less than one stop. Nevertheless, it was a BIG DEAL. I suspect that the step from WEAPON DRAGON to Helium is going to be a similar quantum leap, and worth it, which is why I've ordered the upgrades (again). The step up from EPIC DRAGON to Helium should really blow you away. It will not be subtle.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Sounds about right. $15k+ to go from Epic Dragon to Epic-W for a very subtle increase in low light ability?

The new body also comes with much more band width, no? Or is that not the case for W?

It was a rather noticeable difference going from Epic Dragon to weapon and then from weapon to helium even more so. So it´s not a subtle increase in lowlight if you ask me, but actually quite a drastic difference. Sure if you shoot well exposed, normal framerate and watch the material in 2k then I think the difference is difficult to spot. But then there is all those other scenarios....

 

[Sergio Perez]

Forgot to say there's a significant difference in the look of both sensors, tough. I await for the release version of the new color science to make judgement of this. Currently, funnily enough, Helium looks better for certain shots while Dragon better for others. I agree what some have said as "different film stocks". I'm using 240gb "slow" cards so am not judging on absolute best compression scenario.

Would I upgrade from Epic Dragon? Definitely. Lets not forget how much the Epic improved over time. I'm sure the Helium will only get better in the upcoming months and years.

 

[patrickortman]

You're a funny guy! I too came to the same conclusion. Love the RED ecosystem and the never-ending change, but it's a killer to try and keep up. Renting is the way to enjoy the new upgrades and not have a coronary every month when Jarred or Brent makes some pronouncement about some new brain they've developed.

I have belatedly, after owning 4 different REDs over almost 10 years, come to exactly this conclusion as well.

Cheers and happy 2017!

P

 

[jordan levy]

i know ive been reading the color science isnt there yet, but i have a friend not on reduser, pretty big professional too, that is having issues with his helium that everything that is clipped is not white, it's pink, especially the sky. anyone have any idea why this occurs or have the same problem? he is shooting with a milvus on an epic-w.

 

[Nick Morrison]

i know ive been reading the color science isnt there yet, but i have a friend not on reduser, pretty big professional too, that is having issues with his helium that everything that is clipped is not white, it's pink, especially the sky. anyone have any idea why this occurs or have the same problem? he is shooting with a milvus on an epic-w.

Sounds like the old color science. Is he using IPP2?

 

[Derek Carlson]

I've noticed my auto-white balance tends to go -10 or so on the tint. If he's shooting at 0 on the tint it will look pretty magenta.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I've noticed my auto-white balance tends to go -10 or so on the tint. If he's shooting at 0 on the tint it will look pretty magenta.

Yep, similar experience . Easily corrected in Redcine X.

 

[Ian D]

Not sure if its just my preference but a lot of the footage from helium looks super clean, and almost too sharp. Dragon feels less so, helium reminds me of when hd came out first and was too sharp for people. Perhaps my eye will ease to it over time, for now its not a look I crave. Disclaimer : I have not shot with helium just watched lots of well crafted footage on the web. I am a dragon owner.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Nick Morrison]

Not sure if its just my preference but a lot of the footage from helium looks super clean, and almost too sharp. Dragon feels less so, helium reminds me of when hd came out first and was too sharp for people. Perhaps my eye will ease to it over time, for now its not a look I crave. Disclaimer : I have not shot with helium just watched lots of well crafted footage on the web. I am a dragon owner.

Cheers
Ian

I have worries too that 8K is starting to look too sharp, but I guess we'll see how it all shakes out!!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If 8K is too sharp, blur it.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Not sure if its just my preference but a lot of the footage from helium looks super clean, and almost too sharp. Dragon feels less so, helium reminds me of when hd came out first and was too sharp for people. Perhaps my eye will ease to it over time, for now its not a look I crave. Disclaimer : I have not shot with helium just watched lots of well crafted footage on the web. I am a dragon owner.

Cheers
Ian

I think thats has to do with the DR of helium most stuff seen is exposed to the super right like shooting 200ISO on dragon. If you put ND 9.0 in helium and bring up ISO to 6400 it starts to behave a lot like Dragon in terms of noise structure etc.

I can only say first time I tested it I was in a bit of shock think that the closest reference I got in terms of looks was my iPhone As I rally like to have a texture on shots and simply if helium is well exposed at iso 800 then it will not have any texture in HD or even 4k. or atleast far from the kind of texture we are used to.


But all that I see as a good thing as you and always ad texture in post or simply expose for it. Exposing for it give you mad amount of headroom which also renders really nice highlights. So all in all I would say its more light sensitive the Helium DR is simply slided towards the left which is something I think is ver y desirable even though its a brain twist to get use to in the beginning. Then the early color processing and stuff did not really help to comfort me what was going on.

So simply I think when you got use to it there is a lot of benefits and simply a better picture.

Here is some 6800ISO stuff to me that looks like good old weapon 1200ISO or such, to me the helium picture becomes more vibrant and better. even though the iso is pushed much further.


https://vimeo.com/196192729

Shitty mixed lightning conditions in my apartment, tungsten and bad leds in a mix at all at super low levels. For some reason my wife keep that place like a dark dungeon which drives me nut but is good for testing the left end of the DR.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Gotta love cats!

 

[Craig Lees]

Wowsers Bjorn, 6400ISO! What OLPF did you use?

Cheers
Craig Lees
UK

 

[Stacey Spears]

If 8K is too sharp, blur it.

Just to add, you can always make an image softer. The camera itself should capture every last detail and then you can blur optically or electronically later.
And to also point out, IPP2 is sharper than IPP1.

In general, I find 8K smoother, not sharper.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Most helpful term might be acuity since "sharp" and "smooth" can be more subjective in interpretation.

With Helium one of the magical things is that the spatial quantization i.e. image "resolution" goes to the level where it practically disappears, making the image look more organic and leaving just one clear look through the glass. And as any acquisition it also has its aesthetic.

I wouldn't suggest shooting at the highest resolution "just because", even if the goal is something else, then using software tools to reduce it and actually achieve something else but in post. That is not only a waste of resources but also additional digital processing step, further "sterilising" the image. I suggest shooting at the "resolution" closest to the desired acuity, reducing all image processing to a minimum. If you want the most natural, "organic" image impression, that is.

Oversampling for increasing acuity and software blurring are not really equal in benefit. One is helping with "de-digitalization" of the image, other not so much.

 

[Nick Morrison]

If 8K is too sharp, blur it.

I'm not sure this is practical when I deliver 10 hours of graded dailies to clients.

At least for my workflow.

But for a graded commercial? Sure.

 

[Russell Morris]

I'm honestly going to be holding on to my dragon for a while, i love the colour science dragon gives out. Plus for a lot of my work i do fast action sports, the epic has great HFR options without having to sacrifice resolution. Thats one of the main things thats stopping me upgrading to epic-w.

 

[Ted Parkes]

I wish I could afford one of each but like Russell I have chosen to stick with my Dragon for now. Love this camera and I have the lensing, DOF, workflow and colour dialled in nicely. As much as I love what I am seeing from the W and I am a big fan of S35, the data and 8K are over kill for 90% of my clients. Like Nick I often have hours of footage so any additional post adjustments or processing takes time. In my opinion not shooting Epic -W in full res defeats the purpose of that camera. Cropping into the sensor for a lower res image changes everything. Not just the data consumption. In theory "too sharp" is never a problem. In the past we chose lenses and filtration to dictate the outcome. In practice however the way we shoot, the resources at hand make that more of a challenge. The nice thing about S35 is there is a politheria of lens & filtration options out there.

 

[Bruce Schultz]

Very interesting DxOMark ratings just released for Helium vs Dragon, not a full stop faster but more like .4 stop faster according to their measurements.

"DxOMark explains that while both the Dragon and Helium sensors are ‘physically similar,’ the Helium ultimately offers more densely packed pixels at approximately 3.65 microns each. Less impressive is the organization’s assessment of the dynamic range, which measured at 15.2 stops versus RED’s advertised 16.5+ stops. That is still greater than the Epic Dragon’s DxOMark dynamic range rating of 14.8 stops, however. DxOMark has given RED’s 35.4MP Helium 8K sensor its highest overall score ever: 108. This makes the prototype sensor the second ever to exceed the 100 point milestone, joined only by the RED Epic Dragon prototype, which scored 101. "
https://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/RED-Helium-8K-DxOMark-Sensor-Score-108-A-new-all-time-high-score2