IPP2 In Camera limitations on Scarlet-W

[Brett_M]

Hi All,
I'm unable to find info on the exact differences of IN CAMERA IPP2 control on the Scarlet-W vs Epic-W. With Scarlet-W, you just have limitations on the more advanced controls but still can shoot and simultaneously record to ProRes using IPP2 processing and highlight/contrast settings?
Why would RED limit Ipp2 controls in the Scarlet-W? Processing power for the 3D luts and stuff?
Thank you for your help, apologies in advance if I was unable to dig up the answers here...

Best,
Brett

btw- When will the message interface or forum interface here be updated? What a mess- I'm all for nostalgia and web archives/museums and "brutalist web design" but I can't even see what I'm typing here....

 

[Phil Holland]

They aren't limiting it. IPP2 internal processing came along when Helium was released with some extra horse power inside the brain. As such, Helium and Monstro cameras are the only DSMC2 cameras that fully support IPP2 internally.

It's a bit frustrating, but it's the way it is.

You can load the Output Transform LUTs however and utilize it that way. I run mostly Medium Contrast, Medium Roll-Off BT.1886 in my Weapon w/ Dragon.

Monstro will be set to the same most of the time via the full IPP2 support.

You will also need the 17x17x17 cubes for Scarlet-W.

As to the last note regarding the message, not exactly clear. I can see what I'm typing as I'm typing it.

 

[Mestizo Devon]

They aren't limiting it. IPP2 internal processing came along when Helium was released with some extra horse power inside the brain. As such, Helium and Monstro cameras are the only DSMC2 cameras that fully support IPP2 internally.

It's a bit frustrating, but it's the way it is.

You can load the Output Transform LUTs however and utilize it that way. I run mostly Medium Contrast, Medium Roll-Off BT.1886 in my Weapon w/ Dragon.

Monstro will be set to the same most of the time via the full IPP2 support.

You will also need the 17x17x17 cubes for Scarlet-W.

As to the last note regarding the message, not exactly clear. I can see what I'm typing as I'm typing it.

Phil, unless I went nuts or am high from the exhaust fans ; ) In the past firms you could select IPP2 in camera on Scarlet W now you can't access that drop down in 7.0.0.0.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, unless I went nuts or am high from the exhaust fans ; ) In the past firms you could select IPP2 in camera on Scarlet W now you can't access that drop down in 7.0.0.0.

You can select REDwideGamutRGB and Log3G10 and apply the Output Transform LUT in any Dragon DSMC2 camera under "Legacy" processing. In Helium and Monstro bodies there's a whole other menu with IPP2 in there.


Here's a pretty clear post and graphic on IPP2:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?161964-RED-IPP2-Introduction

 

[Brett_M]

Thank you Phil! I'll read up on all this more.
Must be my web browser making this message interface a little weird, I'll try another, using safari here

 

[Ryan Williams]

Keep in mind that if you get Phil's LUTs you won't be able to use them in your camera as they are 33x33x33. I don't have the software needed to re-lattice (or w/e the process is called) the LUTs down to 17x17x17. I'm currently trying to figure out if the monitors I'm looking at getting will be able to support 33x33x33 3D LUTs so I can get some on-location ideas of what my footage will look like.

 

[Thomas L]

Converting 33 LUTS to 17

Converting 33 LUTS to 17

can you recommend a software to convert 33 LUTs into 17 LUTs?

i've searched the forum and seems that lattice is the one everybody recommends but unfortunately its not available for PC ... any recommendations??

thx!

 

[Ryan Williams]

can you recommend a software to convert 33 LUTs into 17 LUTs?

i've searched the forum and seems that lattice is the one everybody recommends but unfortunately its not available for PC ... any recommendations??

thx!

Unfort I don't have any recommendations for you for software. I'm in the same boat. However, I believe one of the RUsers has/had Lattice and may be willing to do some conversions for you if you ask nicely. I remember reading it in an older thread, so you would have to do some digging for whoever it was. If you do find that RU and they agree to do it, please let me know. I'd be keen in a copy as well. Until then I will be stuck like you to just using it in Cine-X... -_-

 

[Matt Beardsley]

I've finished a handful of projects with IPP2 on Scarlet-W now and the results are really really nice. A client commented that the new footage looks cleaner and more open – awesome that Red would give these cameras out in the wild new color science. I've been slowly revisiting older recent shoots and updating to IPP2 which is pretty satisfying. It's especially cool to me that the new IPP2 LUTs introduce a way to take control over at what curve and at what brightness the highlights roll off to white, not to mention control over contrast in general.

Once I have footage loaded in FCPX, I open the RED RAW Settings box and change Color Space to REDWideGamutRGB and Gamma to Log 3G10, then under Settings in the metadata, I change the Camera LUT to one of Red's IPP2 Cubes (Lots of interesting options there, of course). You can load Red's whole Cubes folder into FCPX via that same dropdown in the metadata editor and they are available for every library. If you select clips in the browser after import, both the RAW settings and LUT can be dropped on all selected clips at once, so it isn't much of a time commitment. Any given file or selection, of course, can have its individual RAW settings and LUT changed. So that's cool.

In camera, meanwhile, both REDWideGamutRGB and Log 3G10 can be selected for recording under Image > Image Pipeline > Options > Legacy > Color Space & Gamma Curve, and monitoring can be set to things like "RWG / REDgamma4" via each output's monitoring menu... Presumably, that is REDWideGamutRGB which has replaced familiar options like DragonColor2 in a recent firmware update(?)

The Red Cubes for IPP2, on my Scarlet-W at least, can not be loaded... I get an error message that reads "Invalid 3D LUT [LUT Name] LUT size is: 33x33x33; max allowed size is: 17x17x17." So I monitor in REDgamma4 and dive into the new LUTs only in post.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I've finished a handful of projects with IPP2 on Scarlet-W now and the results are really really nice. A client commented that the new footage looks cleaner and more open – awesome that Red would give these cameras out in the wild new color science. I've been slowly revisiting older recent shoots and updating to IPP2 which is pretty satisfying. It's especially cool to me that the new IPP2 LUTs introduce a way to take control over at what curve and at what brightness the highlights roll off to white, not to mention control over contrast in general.

Once I have footage loaded in FCPX, I open the RED RAW Settings box and change Color Space to REDWideGamutRGB and Gamma to Log 3G10, then under Settings in the metadata, I change the Camera LUT to one of Red's IPP2 Cubes (Lots of interesting options there, of course). You can load Red's whole Cubes folder into FCPX via that same dropdown in the metadata editor and they are available for every library. If you select clips in the browser after import, both the RAW settings and LUT can be dropped on all selected clips at once, so it isn't much of a time commitment. Any given file or selection, of course, can have its individual RAW settings and LUT changed. So that's cool.

In camera, meanwhile, both REDWideGamutRGB and Log 3G10 can be selected for recording under Image > Image Pipeline > Options > Legacy > Color Space & Gamma Curve, and monitoring can be set to things like "RWG / REDgamma4" via each output's monitoring menu... Presumably, that is REDWideGamutRGB which has replaced familiar options like DragonColor2 in a recent firmware update(?)

The Red Cubes for IPP2, on my Scarlet-W at least, can not be loaded... I get an error message that reads "Invalid 3D LUT [LUT Name] LUT size is: 33x33x33; max allowed size is: 17x17x17." So I monitor in REDgamma4 and dive into the new LUTs only in post.

You can convert any 33 LUT into a 17 one for monitoring.

 

[rand thompson]

You can make some 17x17x17 cube IPP2 luts in Redcine-X

[/url]Screenshot (17) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]


Choose "Color Space" and "Gamma Curve"

[/url]Screenshot (96) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]Screenshot (97) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]




Choose "Output Tone Map" and "Highlight Roll-Off"

[/url]Screenshot (98) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]Screenshot (99) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]



Then whatever "Cube Size" you what.

[/url]Screenshot (100) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Matt Beardsley]

You can convert any 33 LUT into a 17 one for monitoring.

You can make some 17x17x17 cube IPP2 luts in Redcine-X

Oh snap, I had no idea Redcine-X did that... that's gonna be fun to dive into! I can't imagine, if it looks accurate to the recording, that there's a downside to doing that vs. monitoring in legacy gamma curves (?)

EDIT: whoa, so easy to crank out 17x17x17 LUTs for in-camera monitoring in Redcine-X. Thanks fellas!

 

[Bob Gundu]

Oh snap, I had no idea Redcine-X did that... that's gonna be fun to dive into! I can't imagine, if it looks accurate to the recording, that there's a downside to doing that vs. monitoring in legacy gamma curves (?)

EDIT: whoa, so easy to crank out 17x17x17 LUTs for in-camera monitoring in Redcine-X. Thanks fellas!

17 cubes are common for monitoring but certainly not near good enough for the actual delivery as it will not be accurate enough and will most likely induce banding.

 

[rand thompson]

Yeah,


like Bob said, 32 cube size luts are best for final deliver and not 17 cube size Luts, especially with "Tetrahedral" interpolation.

 

[Matt Beardsley]

Interesting, so with 3D LUTs on Scarlet-W, there isn't a way to monitor in a LUT without applying it in the Image menu to the recorded footage as well, the monitoring options include "3D LUT", which references the LUT currently loaded for recording.. unlike the legacy color and gamma choices which can be different per output. I imagine that could create headaches in post if there are mysterious 17x17x17 LUTs riding in on footage. Also, the LUT's name seems to be permanently on the LCD, which is a bummer in terms of real estate on the 4.7" touch. I'm trying again with more obvious names like "IPP2 MEDIUM CONTRAST PREVIEW". Thoughts?

 

[Bob Gundu]

Interesting, so with 3D LUTs on Scarlet-W, there isn't a way to monitor in a LUT without applying it in the Image menu to the recorded footage as well, the monitoring options include "3D LUT", which references the LUT currently loaded for recording.. unlike the legacy color and gamma choices which can be different per output. I imagine that could create headaches in post if there are mysterious 17x17x17 LUTs riding in on footage. Also, the LUT's name seems to be permanently on the LCD, which is a bummer in terms of real estate on the 4.7" touch. I'm trying again with more obvious names like "IPP2 MEDIUM CONTRAST PREVIEW". Thoughts?

Whatever LUT you use to monitor, doesn't bake on the R3D anyway. It does however sit in the recorded folder. If using a 17 cube LUT, I rename it to "17 Cube Monitoring Only" so there is no confusion if the card is being handed off to someone else.

 

[Matt Beardsley]

Whatever LUT you use to monitor, doesn't bake on the R3D anyway. It does however sit in the recorded folder. If using a 17 cube LUT, I rename it to "17 Cube Monitoring Only" so there is no confusion if the card is being handed off to someone else.

That's what I was thinking exactly! However, I experimented with several different names by renaming on the computer, and the Scarlet-W only shows them as "Apple macOS UDF FS" which is no good when there are more than one! Neither Redcine-X nor the Scarlet-W allow naming, how were you able to rename them?

 

[Bob Gundu]

That's what I was thinking exactly! However, I experimented with several different names by renaming on the computer, and the Scarlet-W only shows them as "Apple macOS UDF FS" which is no good when there are more than one! Neither Redcine-X nor the Scarlet-W allow naming, how were you able to rename them?

I have no issues renaming them on my computer before loading them into the camera. STRANGE!