Interesting news from Blackmagic...

[Misha Engel]

High end cameras from ARRI, Red, Sony are not going anywhere... for now. For now, it's the low end cameras, mass produced cameras that are under assault.
And for now, the recipe is simple- make 'em cheap, make 'em good enough and pile 'em sky high...
But make no mistake, BM always starts out slow, but like terminator, BM just keeps coming back with better tech. It takes time, but eventually they will come to the top too...

I would call it more midrange.
The UMP G2 already checks a lot of boxes compared to the Amira/Alexa, Dragon-X, C300, Varicam, F55/5, etc...
The pocket 4 and 6k don't have competition at the moment (maybe a bit from the Z-Cam).

 

[Dominik Muench]

nice specs but they cant even fulfill orders for their 4K camera properly. this is becoming a joke. shame actually because they make pretty decent gear...once they get their catastrophic first firmware versions updated.
I have two friends in OZ still waiting on their 4K BMPCC they ordered months ago...they're not happy lol

 

[Misha Engel]

nice specs but they cant even fulfill orders for their 4K camera properly. this is becoming a joke.

Luxury problems.

 

[Dominik Muench]

Luxury problems.

on blackmagics behalf yes, must be nice to be in demand. for the customer it sucks big time. my mates both had to pay the cameras in full upfront as down payments on their orders and their promised gear so far is 12 weeks late and nowhere to be seen. australia has a pretty bad reseller/distribution system. even when the company is local and based just down the road.

 

[John Brawley]

on blackmagics behalf yes, must be nice to be in demand. for the customer it sucks big time. my mates both had to pay the cameras in full upfront as down payments on their orders and their promised gear so far is 12 weeks late and nowhere to be seen. australia has a pretty bad reseller/distribution system. even when the company is local and based just down the road.

That just sounds like a bad dealer.

I don’t know any dealer that would insist on a full upfront payment without a delivery date.

I’ve seen P4ks pretty readily available from the usual places. I just looked at BH and they’re listed as in stock.

JB

 

[Ron Steinberg]

PL lenses are not expensive anymore. Also vintage lenses are wildly popular and don't usually come in EF mounts. Grant is missing a point. Put simply- PL IS the cine lens standard. BM is making cine cameras and so they claim. Why don't they use cine standards for lens mount? BM seems to be always behind in this regard.....hmmmm

I haven't watched the video yet describing why they went didn't go with PL but you can adapt PL to EF with an adapter, you can't go the other way. For this price point EF is the correct choice, it opens up the possibility of autofocus and image stabilization and a whole lot of EF glass which many will already own (more so than PL).

 

[Dominik Muench]

That just sounds like a bad dealer.

I don’t know any dealer that would insist on a full upfront payment without a delivery date.

I’ve seen P4ks pretty readily available from the usual places. I just looked at BH and they’re listed as in stock.

JB

absolutely !! I know its not just directly a BM problem even though they seem to have some supply chain delays.

Unfortunately B&H wont deliver certain products to OZ and we are forced to go through local dealers, most of which are not very efficient.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I haven't watched the video yet describing why they went didn't go with PL but you can adapt PL to EF with an adapter, you can't go the other way. For this price point EF is the correct choice, it opens up the possibility of autofocus and image stabilization and a whole lot of EF glass which many will already own (more so than PL).

Unfortunately very few lenses would accept PL to EF adapter- none of the vintage lenses would. I see lot of young aspiring film makers using vintage and inexpensive contemporary lenses to make their mark. They do wonderful things with that stuff. And that whole market segment is out of BM reach because of their lens mount choice. As far as autofocus - BM does not make their sensors so they can only implement contrast detect AF- pretty much a sales gimmick completely useless in any real shooting situation. So yes, for the sales team it may be a value of another line in the feature list on their sales brochure but for any professional with experience and intelligence it is a joke, an insult to their intelligence and competence (AF CD that is)
IMO it is a barrier put in by BM to protect their more expensive line of cameras UMP2...

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Agree. This 6k camera cost less than most PL rangefinder. I think alot of big name DPs that rent bigger cameras for thier projects would find it super appealing to get one of these to have as their recce cam, b cam etc. if it was PL mount on there. That would be a big extra marketing benefit.

It doesn't matter how cheap it is, design is limiting.
And a bunch of other things.

 

[jake blackstone]

I think AJA did that to themselves.
They made a single camera that was crap and therefore, was still-born.

I wasn't even talking about the AJA camera. I was talking about their main bread and butter- converter boxes. And that is where BM got their start by undercutting AJA pricing.

I don't think BMD are interested in that market at all. (the very high end) They don't care for the cache of big hollywood films. I'm not the target demographic for their cameras and I don't think many of the users here are either.

I think their software progression says otherwise. BM cobbled together Resolve suite made out of purchased software, that had previously failed in the market. Yet, BM never fails to mention Resolve suite as "The most advanced software in the world". And overwhelming majority of the mass users actually believe this claim. So, I think BM very clearly interested in dominating in all markets they enter. It just takes time...

 

[Richie Allen]

i'll bet they have a full frame camera by IBC, in some form.

 

[M Most]

BM cobbled together Resolve suite made out of purchased software, that had previously failed in the market. Yet, BM never fails to mention Resolve suite as "The most advanced software in the world". And overwhelming majority of the mass users actually believe this claim.

I wouldn't say that Resolve (prior to BM adding additional modules) had failed in the market. It wasn't hitting 2K numbers, but given time, who knows. Nor would i say that Digital Fusion had failed. Since I don't work in post sound I wouldn't offer comments about Fairlight. But Resolve was basically doing as well as its competitors (i.e., Baselight, Lustre, etc) and Digital Fusion, while it didn't have the "buzz" that Shake and Nuke did, was a very viable product that was used by a number of independent shops, particularly those based on Lightwave for CG work. I think Grant had a vision - whether I agreed with it or not - and has executed it very, very well, using whatever tools he had at his disposal (lowering the price to zero among them) to ensure its success, at least in terms of market penetration. He was able to do something with a color correction program that a much bigger software company was not (i.e., Adobe). Regardless of what one might think, he does follow through, sometimes against all odds, in bringing those visions to fruition.

 

[jake blackstone]

I wouldn't say that Resolve (prior to BM adding additional modules) had failed in the market. It wasn't hitting 2K numbers, but given time, who knows. Nor would i say that Digital Fusion had failed. Since I don't work in post sound I wouldn't offer comments about Fairlight. But Resolve was basically doing as well as its competitors (i.e., Baselight, Lustre, etc) and Digital Fusion, while it didn't have the "buzz" that Shake and Nuke did, was a very viable product that was used by a number of independent shops, particularly those based on Lightwave for CG work. I think Grant had a vision - whether I agreed with it or not - and has executed it very, very well, using whatever tools he had at his disposal (lowering the price to zero among them) to ensure its success, at least in terms of market penetration. He was able to do something with a color correction program that a much bigger software company was not (i.e., Adobe). Regardless of what one might think, he does follow through, sometimes against all odds, in bringing those visions to fruition.

DaVinci never managed to properly transition from hardware based to software based platform. They were late to the market and they were terribly overpriced. I remember the last NAB where DaVinci demo'ed Resolve. As usual, they had a huge booth, but there were no buyers. On the other hand, FilmLight booth was mobbed, as usual and you needed to make an appointment for a demo. And son is Discreet. Resolve was underwhelming software with a market, that was collapsing right before their eyes. DaVinci went through many company reorganizations, which greatly contributed to Resolve being late to the market for non linear color grading. Very few users were willing to invest in overpriced, unknown and frankly, an inferior platform, where one could buy Baselight, Lustre or Nucoda, all with proven track record and great support. If I remember correctly, Digital Vision pursued DaVinci, it performed fa ull due diligence and then decided to walk away, once they got the full picture of the company. Only then, as a last resort, when DaVinci lost its hope to continue as a going concern, BM swooped in and purchased DaVinci. So, no one really knows what would have happened to Resolve, if Digital Vision went though with the purchase, but we do know, that at the time, Resolve failed miserably in the market.
But as I said, BM just keeps coming back. Even though, now it seems, that the business model for Resolve is 6 months spent in beta, followed by 6 months of actual released software. Rinse and repeat...

 

[Misha Engel]

It doesn't matter how cheap it is, design is limiting.
And a bunch of other things.

Doesn't that count for every camera.

 

[Marc Wielage]

It's pretty fascinating to watch what Blackmagic is now doing to the camera makers, after what they had already managed to do to editing, color grading, sound, VFX and of coarse, the first victim- AJA. High end cameras from ARRI, Red, Sony are not going anywhere... for now. For now, it's the low end cameras, mass produced cameras that are under assault.

I think it's no coincidence that Panasonic had to cut the price of its $20,000 Varicam LT to $9995 in the last few months. I thought it was an OK camera for $20K -- for $10K, it's exceptionally good. I don't think the $6000 BMD camera is quite in that league.

DaVinci never managed to properly transition from hardware based to software based platform. They were late to the market and they were terribly overpriced. I remember the last NAB where DaVinci demo'ed Resolve. As usual, they had a huge booth, but there were no buyers. On the other hand, FilmLight booth was mobbed, as usual and you needed to make an appointment for a demo. And son is Discreet. Resolve was underwhelming software with a market, that was collapsing right before their eyes. DaVinci went through many company reorganizations, which greatly contributed to Resolve being late to the market for non linear color grading. Very few users were willing to invest in overpriced, unknown and frankly, an inferior platform, where one could buy Baselight, Lustre or Nucoda, all with proven track record and great support. If I remember correctly, Digital Vision pursued DaVinci, it performed fa ull due diligence and then decided to walk away, once they got the full picture of the company. Only then, as a last resort, when DaVinci lost its hope to continue as a going concern, BM swooped in and purchased DaVinci. So, no one really knows what would have happened to Resolve, if Digital Vision went though with the purchase, but we do know, that at the time, Resolve failed miserably in the market. But as I said, BM just keeps coming back. Even though, now it seems, that the business model for Resolve is 6 months spent in beta, followed by 6 months of actual released software. Rinse and repeat...

I don't think that's quite true. I was a demo artist for daVinci Systems around 2003-2006, so I saw quite a bit that was going on prior to the company tanking in 2009. (Note that daVinci itself was doing fine -- it was their parent corporation that went bankrupt, not Resolve and not daVinci 2K.)

There were internal fights as to whether to release a "daVinci 4K" hardware system or to go with a completely resolution-independent system like Resolve, or even a hybrid inbetween the two. The fabled "daVinci Nucleas" was one of those that was demo'd but never came out.

While Resolve did not sell well in the first 6-7 years it was out -- hell, I'd go a step further and say it barely worked, too -- daVinci 2K was a huge seller and they made a ton of money with that. I think the designers knew that off-shelf computer hardware would eventually catch up to the requirements of Resolve software, and of course, that's exactly what finally did happen. It just took a long time.

The history of daVinci has yet to be written, but there was an interesting time when daVinci Systems sold a lot of Resolves for $300,000-$400,000, then went bankrupt, and then Blackmagic Design bought all the IP. By September of 2009, Grant Petty gave a revealing interview talking about their plans for the future, and the reporter jokingly suggested they drop the basic price of Resolve from $250,000 to $995. They had a good laugh over that. And then six months later at NAB 2010, that's exactly what they did (though the full Linux system only went down from $300K to $50K).

software only:

Mac version with control surface:

Linux version with control surface:

The disruption of that price cut caused a lot of hurt feelings and even lawsuits, though it's important to note that BMD only purchased daVinci's patents & IP and not their debts or contracts with post houses. It's very interesting to observe how far Blackmagic has gone, and what their ultimate goals will be and what the ramifications will be for the post business.

BTW, the link to that September 2009 Grant Petty article is here:

https://library.creativecow.net/art..._folder=grant_petty-blackmagic-davinci&page=1

 

[Savannah Miller]

Blackmagic didn't exactly do anything for VFX. Nuke has not changed their prices, and no major studios have any plans of switching to Fusion. I have used both, and Fusion is decent but there are a lot of basic issues which would prevent any major VFX studio from using it.

Eyeon made a great software that was better than Nuke, but by the time Blackmagic purchased it, it was too little, too late. A lot of the new features are cool but they need to make changes to the existing tools first.

 

[jake blackstone]

Note that daVinci itself was doing fine -- it was their parent corporation that went bankrupt, not Resolve and not daVinci 2K

As usual a ridiculous statement. How can software or hardware can go bankrupt?
You're not the only one privy to the internal DaVinci discussions. I have plenty of experience working with DaVinci products and I had established a good working relationship with many people working there at the time.
I will reiterate my point once more, Resolve was too late to the market and it was terribly overpriced to be a viable choice at the time and it is precisely why DaVinci- a company, not the product, went bankrupt.

 

[jake blackstone]

Blackmagic didn't exactly do anything for VFX. Nuke has not changed their prices, and no major studios have any plans of switching to Fusion. I have used both, and Fusion is decent but there are a lot of basic issues which would prevent any major VFX studio from using it.

Eyeon made a great software that was better than Nuke, but by the time Blackmagic purchased it, it was too little, too late. A lot of the new features are cool but they need to make changes to the existing tools first.

Hence my original statement about Resolve being a collection of second rate products.
As far as Resolve hasn't done anything significant to VFX, not yet. Once companies realize they don't need to spend $9,240 for Nuke or $4205 for Flame per seat, while everyone in the company can work on the same project at the same time, all for $299 per seat, things will change. It just takes time.
Hence my second point about BM being persistent.

 

[Savannah Miller]

Hence my original statement about Resolve being a collection of second rate products.
As far as Resolve hasn't done anything significant to VFX, not yet. Once companies realize they don't need to spend $9,240 for Nuke or $4205 for Flame per seat, while everyone in the company can work on the same project at the same time, all for $299 per seat, things will change. It just takes time.
Hence my second point about BM being persistent.

It's quite expensive to train people to use Fusion, when you have a company of hundreds of people, many of which are pulling 6 figure salaries. Building a Fusion pipeline from scratch is also very expensive. When your company has hundreds of employees billing roughly $1500 a day, the cost of a $4500 nuke license per artist and a few NukeX licenses is not much.

Fusion has a few fundamental image quality issues they need to address with the way some of their nodes work before people start switching. Their corner pinning tools are ridiculously bad and their camera projection is terrible too.

 

[M Most]

DaVinci never managed to properly transition from hardware based to software based platform. They were late to the market and they were terribly overpriced.

I said absolutely nothing about DaVinci prior to the BM sale. What I said was "prior to BM adding additional modules." Blackmagic released Resolve at the hugely reduced price long before it added things like Fusion and Fairlight. It was that price drop that triggered its market success, not the additional modules that were added later. You went off about DaVinci Systems. I never mentioned that entity because that's not what I was referring to. I was simply pointing out that your depiction of those things as "failed products" was not an accurate characterization. And I stand by that.