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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Interested in 4K LUT Box ?

M

Mike Nagel

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Hi guys,

as you may know Lumagen is releasing the "Pro" units later this year that can handle native 4K UHD and most importantly add 4K LUT processing, probably something like a 17^3 (my guess).

Since these Pro units will be on the higher end price wise, I inquired with Jim from Lumagen if he would consider building a straight 4K LUT box that does not have all of the Video Processing features that the general Lumagen units include, but simply offers 4K LUT processing.

The price would be cheaper than the "Pro" units but ultimately it depends on demand and interest to determine how low the price can get, the components are very expensive and it takes quite a few to process and handle 4K.

This box could have either HDMI 2.0 out or 4 x SDI 3G, or a combintaion of both. HDMI 2.0 is 18 Ghz so it can handle higher bit-depth (10 / 12 bit) and full chroma (444).

24 fps and 30 fps would be standard (in up to 10 or 12-bit), maybe higher frame rates with chroma subsampling or a drop in bit-depth.

To my knowledge, no other vendor has announced a 4K LUT box, it seems that eeColor is also currently not working on one. Please update this thread if u know otherwise.


Who would be interested in a 4K LUT box ?


- M
 
Mike Nagel said:
Hi guys,
probably something like a 17^3 (my guess).
Click to expand...

Too small for creative LUTs - okay for monitor calibration - but IMO - too small for high-end creative work.

Mike Nagel said:
To my knowledge, no other vendor has announced a 4K LUT box, it seems that eeColor is also currently not working on one. Please update this thread if u know otherwise.

- M
Click to expand...

33x33x33 - 16bit processing as opposed to Lumagen's 12-bit processing - 4K up tp 60p

http://www.innomedia.co.uk/html/pluto.html
 
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  • #3
Mark,

AFAIK, Pluto starts at US$5,995 (HD only) and needs several add-on modules to handle 4K.... u'll be looking at 8-9K...

we're trying to get cheaper options to the market... ;-)

- M
 
Mike Nagel said:
Mark,

AFAIK, Pluto starts at US$5,995 (HD only) and needs several add-on modules to handle 4K.... u'll be looking at 8-9K...

we're trying to get cheaper options to the market... ;-)

- M
Click to expand...

Understood Mike - and I am ALL for as many 3D LUT hardware options as possible!

But it's important to identify the target use for the device - as there is more to consider than just "cost".

Today - 3D LUTs are primarily used to calibrate displays (calibration LUT) or to change color space (technical LUT) - but what I am most passionate about is the power of 3D LUTs for .... CREATIVE (creative LUT). And of course ... what is cool ... is that you can combine technical & creative in one LUT.

You will see more new tools to help create these creative LUTs and I'm gonna announce a new piece of software I have been cheerleading - that has been in development for long time - before NAB - specifically for the creation of creative 3D LUTs that is an entirely NEW and DIFFERENT approach to LUT creation. So for me - I push for higher point size as it's a different animal when you swing the knobs hard for a creative look vs. calibrating a display or just changing LOG to Rec. 709 (which can be done with a 1D LUT)

So ... here's the thing -

YES - I would like to see a 4K 3D LUT box at low cost for on set monitoring to have that option - BUT - most on set monitoring is currently HD - so it is MUCH better IMO to have the ability to use the SAME high precision 3D LUT (33x33x33) on set for monitoring - and then the EXACT same LUT - not a "resized" one - is applied in post. When you apply in post - the 3D LUT gets processed on the GPU and you can monitor on 4K or whatever from the GPU.

So ... just saying that IMO - I'd rather have more color precision in HD than lower precision in 4K - but YES - there is a market for a 4K UHD 3D LUT box at low cost just for monitor calibration - but ... I find it very hard to believe that BLACKMAGIC won't have that at NAB :) (and yeah ... there's will suck)

Just my 2 cents .... I'm all for as many 3D LUT options as possible.
 
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Mark,

yeah, interested to see what u got cooking... I remember u posted something in the past... ;-)

33 cube is a good size, there's peeps that argue "that's enough", yet we have dozens of eeColor with 64/65 cube and I take that any day... ;-) (for display cal) but I think with 4K processing we will hit a bottleneck sooner than later, so I doubt the cube size will be very large...

Not sure how many peeps currently use the Pluto box... I doubt many... it is way too expensive... Aja's box is US$695 and 26 cube... odd size, but way then enough for on-set monitoring...

And u are right, Lumagen is usually home market (high-end consumer, HT enthusiast only) but nobody else is developing something... I hope I'm missing something...

I've spoken to eeColor various times, and nothing is planned atm... BMD was a disaster with the HDLink Pro 3D, man... they need some to do some serious work in order to gain trust again... they were told from plenty of expert sources that their box was distorting LUTs and they didn't bother... useless...

Lumagen is interested in the Pro market, they can add SDI connectors... it is the only company currently on the radar that will def release a product this year that includes a 4K LUT box (their "Pro" unit), which is high-end HT consumer...

4K displays are so cheap nowadays, would love to have an option to get them calibrated...

so if anybody knows about other companies that have 4K LUT boxes in development, please update here !

- M
 
Just to put a little perspective on this - a 17x17x17 3D LUT has 4,913 defined color points - the rest are interpolated (typically trilinear).

A 33x33x33 has 35,937 defined points - and is used in high end post production color grading systems - so again - for me, the holy grail is SAME LUT on set as IN POST - no resize/re-interpolation.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Just to put a little perspective on this - a 17x17x17 3D LUT has 4,913 defined color points - the rest are interpolated (typically trilinear).

A 33x33x33 has 35,937 defined points - and is used in high end post production color grading systems - so again - for me, the holy grail is SAME LUT on set as IN POST - no resize/re-interpolation.
Click to expand...

33^3 would be great... but it will be very hard to find a vendor to do a LUT box for cheap that can handle 4K in 16-bit processing with a 33 cube... I hear the components are expensive... unless u sell a ton of units which I somewhat doubt... ;-)

Realistic price for these boxes (to actually make sales) is 1.5 - 2K max, so u gotta cut down on something... most peeps will use them for display cal... if ur display is linear, ergo a high quality panel, a 17^3 can be more than enough to calibrate the screen properly... if u buy crap screens a 65^3 can't fix the major issues the panel has...

but yeah, a 33^3 LUT would go straight from LS to the box with no interpolation as LS is also using 33 cube internally.... ;-)
 
YES! I would like a budged 4K LUT-Box because: How to calibrate a 4K client review monitor via HDMI 2.0??

--> And it hasn't to have all the super high end features, because if I'm on the high end I don't care about cost... but I don't like to connect a 8000 EUR LUT box to a 4000 EUR 4K TV...

Mark L. Pederson said:
And Panasonic is leading the way with 3D LUT support in (high end) "consumer" 4k TVs -

http://news.panasonic.co.uk/pressre...see-what-the-director-really-intended-1120594
Click to expand...

No, its's a pitty but they don't It's only marketing bla bla :-( (I use a Panasonic AXW904 65" for client review and have the problem that I don't have a dedicated 3D LUT for calibration there for Calman Ultimate)

The internal 8000 samples 3D LUT is a static one to control the complex backlight system. It can't be used to store a display calibartion LUT from Lightspace or Calman...

So yes - what could I stack between a Blackmagic Ultra Studio 4K and my 4K HDMI TV to store a display LUT? Would be great to have something affordable...
 
Leverage

Leverage

Thanks for the Panasonic link Mark. If it's anywhere close to how "awesome" they are claiming, it should be tight. The release talks about technology cross-pollination between divisions which, if it's more than just marketing speak, is excellent news. Sony has a history of developing micro-processing solutions for their pro products and then re-purpurposing those chips for consumer devices, with their ever popular (sic) handicapping to protect vertical markets. Perhaps, with the torrid pace of development these days combined with the brutal competition in the consumer display market, the big players will apply the full leverage of their professional technology portfolio to the upscale consumer lines.

Like Mark, I consider the Fuji IS mini the LUT box to beat. Lumagen has a solid rep in the HT space so if they offer a decent value proposition with UHD/4K capability I'd certainly make the effort to give it a test drive. BMD cuts some corners to hit their targeted price points - some of which are clever, some of which are insidious. I do see a space in the marketplace for something better than BMD but more affordable than the price points broadcast vendors have traditionally charged.

Cheers - #19
 
Danko Dolch said:
YES! I would like a budged 4K LUT-Box because: How to calibrate a 4K client review monitor via HDMI 2.0??

--> And it hasn't to have all the super high end features, because if I'm on the high end I don't care about cost... but I don't like to connect a 8000 EUR LUT box to a 4000 EUR 4K TV...



No, its's a pitty but they don't It's only marketing bla bla :-( (I use a Panasonic AXW904 65" for client review and have the problem that I don't have a dedicated 3D LUT for calibration there for Calman Ultimate)

The internal 8000 samples 3D LUT is a static one to control the complex backlight system. It can't be used to store a display calibartion LUT from Lightspace or Calman...

So yes - what could I stack between a Blackmagic Ultra Studio 4K and my 4K HDMI TV to store a display LUT? Would be great to have something affordable...
Click to expand...

Danko, these are exactly my thoughts...


so for everybody, what would be a price threshold for you for a dedicated 4K LUT box ?

I personally think it shouldn't be at max US$1.5-US$2K in order to get peeps to buy this...

I'm trying to get some feedback for Lumagen and/or maybe eeColor will pick up the ball again...


Also, what's the minimum LUT/cube size u'd want ?

- M
 
acceptable pricing is a hard thing...

1. Modern computer displays for imaging like EIZO Color Edge, the NEC's or HD Dreamcolor have their integrated hardware 3D-LUT that comes "for free" (and you can buy the complete display for 1500 to 4000 EUR)
2. the current consumer electronics devices also make use of large 3D LUT's but they arn't accessible from outside so that they can't used for calibration even if they are already there.
3. The Fuji IS-Mini is about 850 EUR if I remember right. That is no problem for a client review monitor in a grading suite.
But: We have 8 Avid Synphony suites and I can't recommend to buy 8 of them to connect to the old and cheap SONY broadcast monitors to get the colors in AVID right if I can get an EIZO Color Edge new for some extra EUR...
4. Currently I have auto calibrated my PANASONIC AXW904 4K TV via Gamut Remapping and 10 point gamma correction to get delta E below 1 - If I want more I can measure a software LUT for resolve with no add. hardware needed. (Only that will not work from premiere because I have to convert the LUT for Speedgrade to apply it inside of Premiere)

so it seems one could sell some really expensive high end units and lots of cheap "default Rec.709/DCI-P3" Lut Boxes if they are cheap like the $200 BM Intensity Pro 4K...

and if you buy a new 4K display device it better has programmable 3D Lut's already integrated...

difficult situation...
 
Danko Dolch said:
No, its's a pitty but they don't It's only marketing bla bla :-(
(I use a Panasonic AXW904 65" for client review and have the problem that I don't have a dedicated 3D LUT for calibration there for Calman Ultimate)
Click to expand...

Models from Mark's link are just coming out.

Danko Dolch said:
The internal 8000 samples 3D LUT is a static one to control the complex backlight system.
Click to expand...

3DLUT does not control backlight.
If by "static" you are suggesting typical internal calibration, that also does not control backlight.

Danko Dolch said:
2. the current consumer electronics devices also make use of large 3D LUT's but they arn't accessible from outside so that they can't used for calibration even if they are already there.
Click to expand...

Many higher spec'd TV models have 10x10x10.
Not supporting LUT import but allowing manual calibration.

Danko Dolch said:
4. Currently I have auto calibrated my PANASONIC AXW904 4K TV via Gamut Remapping and 10 point gamma correction to get delta E below 1 - If I want more I can measure a software LUT for resolve with no add. hardware needed.
Click to expand...

In "advanced settings" you should have additional 10 point manual calibration option of hue & sat as well.
 
Danko Dolch said:
acceptable pricing is a hard thing...
1. Modern computer displays for imaging like EIZO Color Edge, the NEC's or HD Dreamcolor have their integrated hardware 3D-LUT that comes "for free" (and you can buy the complete display for 1500 to 4000 EUR)
Click to expand...

Eizo is the only thing that can be looked at in this regard - as ENTRY level - the FSI CM LCD series is better than the Eizo LCDs. (IIRC) NEC and HP have 3x3 internal LUTs, absolutely useless. HP DC uniformity issues are an absolute no go.

Advantage of an external LUT box is that u can re-use on any screen and usually has larger LUT size than built-in screens. Also - and this depends on the product - some devices introduce signal distortion when the LUT is processed, Eizo does this to a small degree, the eeColor for example is very, very clean.

Danko Dolch said:
4. Currently I have auto calibrated my PANASONIC AXW904 4K TV via Gamut Remapping and 10 point gamma correction to get delta E below 1 - If I want more I can measure a software LUT for resolve with no add. hardware needed. (Only that will not work from premiere because I have to convert the LUT for Speedgrade to apply it inside of Premiere)

so it seems one could sell some really expensive high end units and lots of cheap "default Rec.709/DCI-P3" Lut Boxes if they are cheap like the $200 BM Intensity Pro 4K...

and if you buy a new 4K display device it better has programmable 3D Lut's already integrated...
difficult situation...
Click to expand...

u have a dE report u can share ? how many points did u run in the val profile ?
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Models from Mark's link are just coming out.

3DLUT does not control backlight.
If by "static" you are suggesting typical internal calibration, that also does not control backlight.

Many higher spec'd TV models have 10x10x10.
Not supporting LUT import but allowing manual calibration.

In "advanced settings" you should have additional 10 point manual calibration option of hue & sat as well.
Click to expand...


"Models from Mark's link are just coming out"
--> As far as I can see this is another funny marketing thing... Last years Panna "Reference" TV set's featured a IPS Panel combined with a sophisticated full array LED backlight pannel.
Then Panna got complaints about bad native contrast due to the IPS tech... now they're trying the VA route again but it feels to me that the AXW904 was to expensive to complicated and now they're bringing out one more consumer oriented and cheap to manufacture VA TV set for the masses. But If I read this marketing 8000 samples 3D LUT statement - it's axactly the same that is used in the AXW904 - as this nothing new...

"If by "static" you are suggesting typical internal calibration, that also does not control backlight."
By static I mean that is a factory calibrated read only LUT that isn't accessible from outside the device. The AXW904 only does gamut remapping and 10 point RGB gammy correction on top.

"Many higher spec'd TV models have 10x10x10.
Not supporting LUT import but allowing manual calibration."
Yes - and in this case allowing full auto calibration via ethernet port from external CMS...
 
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