Interest? Red High Speed Camera?

[Chad Lancaster]

It's been a few years since I've seen a list gauging interest for a Red high speed camera. With Phantom announcing the new veo 4k camera, what would you like to see if Red made a high speed camera?


I'd love to see
5k
1000 FPS
6-8lbs
r3d raw
built in wifi for foolcontrol
DSMC2 based brain design for module accessories and pogo pins for monitors
cheaper than flex 4k

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Man I swear Jarred basically said this was going to happen

anyone else remember that?

 

[PC Greene]

That would be cool, but I think REDs figured out how to parcel out processing power since Forged Carbon is greater processing than regular than magnesium etc - so wonder if it couldn't be done with an add on module to existing DSMC2 camera(s) or if whole new shutter / brain needs designing. Regardless it would have all the Ks and GBs and Tb3 or gigabit teather.

 

[Chad Lancaster]

Man I swear Jarred basically said this was going to happen

anyone else remember that?

I remember but I think he was just gauging interest, fingers crossed its something being developed

 

[John M Taylor]

Yes, yes. A 4K S35 size image at minimum 240 FPS - 480 FPS and minimal rolling shutter would be a fantastic addition to the RED family.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It would demand a new sensor that lowers some of the qualities we have with Dragon and Helium. You can't just increase frame rate without regard for how fast the sensor can actually work. It would be a downgrade in image quality in favor of frame rates.

 

[John Marchant]

I was just poking Jarred about the Veo4k hehe. I'd buy a highspeed camera with redcode in a flash, pardon the pun, but 1000fps isn't that big a market and would involve compromises Red have been reluctant to make on SNR and DR

 

[Phil Holland]

Echoing John's statement, there are real compromises at 1000fps and it's a pretty small market.

However, I have a few thoughts I mentioned about a year ago.

Down the Line I'd like to see 8K VV @ 120fps. That would cover a lot of bases for a lot of things and if we could get REDCODE RAW 12:1 with 8K FF at 120fps I'd be a happy camper. That would have trickle down effects for resolutions like 5K and 4K. Think 4K @ 240-480 FPS depending on where things land.

And if we could go further, 8K @ 240 fps. But that would be a big wish.

Basically a 2X through 4X increase in sensor output and data rates would be impressive. Though we'd need 2TB and/or 4TB Mini-Mags or whatever the likely new media type would be for that and pray for them not to set fire to your camera

The additional benefit for me is to shoot at lower frame rates like 24fps at 8K resolution with a REDCODE like 3:1, maybe 2:1, for 24fps.

No matter what, even if it's burst based with some sort of internal memory buffer we'd need:
- new sensors
- new hardware
- new media

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

What if...

What if...

From the other side of this discussion... Could you make a VEO4K your primary camera for everything? Shoot 24/25/30/60 on the VEO for all but the most demanding DR/IQ situations, then have the ability to go crazy high speed when desired. If the VEO can deliver 12 stops of DR (10 usable) and enough color precision to make pretty pictures it will satisfy a lot of use cases. It's easy to forget that digital cinema cameras these days offer imaging capabilities well beyond the performance envelope of 99.9% of all display tech in use today. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to have a team of camera assistants, each with a different camera ready to go, at my disposal during production. In my world, where paying off my camera investment is best served by being able to get rental for it on the widest variety of projects possible, it's an interesting idea...

Cheers - #19

 

[Mike McEntire]

Yes Please!!! It would be a dream to have a high speed s-35 Red camera. I think in the 300-400fps range at full resolution would be money. Action sports, wildlife, music vids, etc would be well served with such a beast.

 

[Chad Lancaster]

The additional benefit for me is to shoot at lower frame rates like 24fps at 8K resolution with a REDCODE like 3:1, maybe 2:1, for 24fps.

I'd love that, I always shoot at minimum compression..never know if its going to be in print or on imax.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

First, we need to be able to write more data per second to the onboard mags. Not sure what the Mini-Mag speed limit is, but AFAIK it's not much more than the 300MB/s employed on the CF Weapon.

Who wants to dig deep in their wallet for whatever new school RedMags would be needed to get 500-800MB/s write speeds (remember you need some headroom for reliability, so the media would need to support as much as 1GB/s theoretical)?

Even if you're happy to shell out again for media if it gets you lower compression and higher frame rates, there are other issues. For starters, AFAIK, the read/reset time on Dragon or Helium caps max frame rate. We would still benefit from lower compression on over cranks, but wouldn't necessarily get more fps at a given window. Moreover, it would place even more demands on the data handling/storage side of the equation. For hard core camera geeks that may be a minor point, in real world production infrastructure...

If RED engineering can build a camera that adds Phantom-ish over crank ability to the current capabilities at minimal extra cost, that would be awesome. Until then, I'll keep shooting RED and renting Phantoms for high speed...

Just saying'

Cheers - #19

 

[Misha Engel]

First, we need to be able to write more data per second to the onboard mags. Not sure what the Mini-Mag speed limit is, but AFAIK it's not much more than the 300MB/s employed on the CF Weapon.

Who wants to dig deep in their wallet for whatever new school RedMags would be needed to get 500-800MB/s write speeds (remember you need some headroom for reliability, so the media would need to support as much as 1GB/s theoretical)?

Even if you're happy to shell out again for media if it gets you lower compression and higher frame rates, there are other issues. For starters, AFAIK, the read/reset time on Dragon or Helium caps max frame rate. We would still benefit from lower compression on over cranks, but wouldn't necessarily get more fps at a given window. Moreover, it would place even more demands on the data handling/storage side of the equation. For hard core camera geeks that may be a minor point, in real world production infrastructure...

If RED engineering can build a camera that adds Phantom-ish over crank ability to the current capabilities at minimal extra cost, that would be awesome. Until then, I'll keep shooting RED and renting Phantoms for high speed...

Just saying'

Cheers - #19

Mini Mags run on mSATA so more ore less upto 550 MB/s http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time
With HDR on, it will go up to approx. 520 MB/s
For higher speed you would need NVMe drives that go up to sustaind write of around 1500 MB/s http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph10754/84218.png this is done with PCIe 3.x
Since PCIe 4.0 have just been announced (twice as fast) and the new upcoming stacked NAND (upto 96 layers), a sustained write of 3..6 GB/s sould be possible with a 6 to 8 TB size.
I am talking about of the shelf drives with a size of 22x80 mm, so it should fit in a mini mag enclosure.
Here some more info on the development http://www.anandtech.com/show/11703/samsung-at-flash-memory-summit-96layer-vnand-mlc-znand-new-interfaces
I don't expect problems on the storage side, the rest of the electronics will be a bigger challange (with respect to size and power).

 

[Timur Civan]

I mean... pie in the sky..... 8k 2500fps. I don't give a $#|t what it costs or takes. totally shooting for the stars...

 

[Charles Bergquist]

I'd be interested for sure, however, the Phantom workflow does have the advantage of being completely uncompressed. The hardest thing for the RED Weapon or Scarlet-W is compression as frame rate increases. I'd like to see uncompressed RED camera's first, then as Phil stated that 120FPS at the full readout of VV, that'd be some amazing stuff. Which would def mean a new mag or ram tech first.

 

[Chad Lancaster]

I don't think we need completely uncompressed, as r3d compression does a wonderful job, but I do think it would be nice to hit that 3:1 or 4:1 at all frame rates. Maybe Jarred can chime in about where the bottleneck is, whether its the recording media, processing power, or sensor design limit. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be a simple upgrade but a whole different backend to the system. s35/VV at 120fps at 4:1 mmmmmm :drool5:

 

[Charles Bergquist]

It's sensor design and low yields, which is why Phantoms aren't inexpensive. I'd like to see a RED high speed, but also, Vision Research is a New Jersey based camera manufacturer that does incredible things with a small foot print, so I'll keep rooting for them. The Veo4K is pretty damn amazing.

 

[Timur Civan]

Even a 4.5k camera hitting 1500fps would be stellar

 

[Matt Bai]

No.

 

[Milano Questa]

I'd be interested for sure, however, the Phantom workflow does have the advantage of being completely uncompressed. The hardest thing for the RED Weapon or Scarlet-W is compression as frame rate increases. I'd like to see uncompressed RED camera's first, then as Phil stated that 120FPS at the full readout of VV, that'd be some amazing stuff. Which would def mean a new mag or ram tech first.

Would love to see Red use the new Optane XPoint SSDs

https://arstechnica.com/information...ptane-ssd-375gb-that-you-can-also-use-as-ram/