If red really wanted to..

[shatek king]

Can they give us a 24p at 5k for us scarlet users when the Dragon is released.. Pls RED GODS lol! But can this really happen? :willy_nilly:

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Not on non-Dragon Scarlet. It's not a software restriction, it's hardware.

Last was announced, Scarlet Dragon (which will have swapped out processing boards, not just sensor) should do 5K at 60fps. I wouldn't be shocked if that changes up or down; the Scarlet Dragon will be a slightly smaller sensor; 5.5k versus the 6k of Epic. The individual pixels will be the same, but there will be less of them, slightly.

But again, Scarlet Dragon hasn't been locked in the same way Epic has.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

If we were gonna see any improvements to the scarlet... I think the most usefull would be 48fps at 4k and HDRX at 24fps at 4k. That would allow us to keep everything 4k for our post workflow without any upres. I doubt we will see it, but it would be the best improvement that could happen. IMHO.

 

[Doug Beatty]

Not on non-Dragon Scarlet. It's not a software restriction, it's hardware.

Last was announced, Scarlet Dragon (which will have swapped out processing boards, not just sensor) should do 5K at 60fps. I wouldn't be shocked if that changes up or down; the Scarlet Dragon will be a slightly smaller sensor; 5.5k versus the 6k of Epic. The individual pixels will be the same, but there will be less of them, slightly.

Couple of minor notes on this post: Dragon sensor does not have a 'mini' version for Scarlet. It's the same size sensor, but you are restricted to the 5K crop for motion.

I'm thinking 6K may be enabled for stills, much like 5K for stills on Scarlet, even though it's not currently listed as an option.

Interesting that Dragon tech specs list 12 AND 16bit Redcode. According to Jim™, Dragon will have new 16bit color science.

It seems entirely plausible that going back to 'legacy' 12bit color science would lighten the load on sensor readout. It would be nice to be able to juice a few more frames by sacrificing bit depth.

Red could probably do it if Red really wanted to, I don't doubt that..but nothing is finalized yet.

Additionally, the 5K/60 is for a 2.40 aspect ratio. 5K/48 is for full frame.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Not on non-Dragon Scarlet. It's not a software restriction, it's hardware.

Is that for sure? Then why can Scarlet read the sensor at 5k 24fps, and debayer and scale it to 1080p (this works using lookaround)? The hardware just can't record it? It's not a recording bandwidth issue since at 10:1 or 12:1 5k 24fps could fall within Scarlet's 50MBps recording limit. Maybe it's a limitation in the input bandwidth for encoding to REDCODE?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Is that for sure? Then why can Scarlet read the sensor at 5k 24fps, and debayer and scale it to 1080p (this works using lookaround)? The hardware just can't record it? It's not a recording bandwidth issue since at 10:1 or 12:1 5k 24fps could fall within Scarlet's 50MBps recording limit. Maybe it's a limitation in the input bandwidth for encoding to REDCODE?

Hardware meaning the internal boards aren't strong enough to record 5K 24fps reliably. With look around you can SEE that part of the sensor when you SDI out to a recorder, but that's not the same as the internal Scarlet boards being able to professionally record 5k at 24fps in a stable, consistent manner.

At least as I understand it....

 

[Nick Junkersfeld]

4.5k @ 24fps would be a great swan song for the Scarlet MX, but I don't see it happening. Yes, I'm aware this has been batted around for ages now haha :001_tongue:

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Couple of minor notes on this post: Dragon sensor does not have a 'mini' version for Scarlet. It's the same size sensor, but you are restricted to the 5K crop for motion.

I'm thinking 6K may be enabled for stills, much like 5K for stills on Scarlet, even though it's not currently listed as an option.

Interesting that Dragon tech specs list 12 AND 16bit Redcode. According to Jim™, Dragon will have new 16bit color science.

It seems entirely plausible that going back to 'legacy' 12bit color science would lighten the load on sensor readout. It would be nice to be able to juice a few more frames by sacrificing bit depth.

Red could probably do it if Red really wanted to, I don't doubt that..but nothing is finalized yet.

Additionally, the 5K/60 is for a 2.40 aspect ratio. 5K/48 is for full frame.

It has been mentioned that the sensor is, in fact, less pixels physically. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92999-Red-Dragon-Info-and-Data-Sheets and http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-dragon-upgrade are the closest I can find. But there was talk/speculation that a slightly smaller sensor size = more sensors yielded per wafer = cost savings = able to put out a Scarlet Dragon for a cost that makes sense.

Is that for sure? Then why can Scarlet read the sensor at 5k 24fps, and debayer and scale it to 1080p (this works using lookaround)? The hardware just can't record it? It's not a recording bandwidth issue since at 10:1 or 12:1 5k 24fps could fall within Scarlet's 50MBps recording limit. Maybe it's a limitation in the input bandwidth for encoding to REDCODE?

Debayering and Downrezzing a 5K image to 1080p is not the same thing as Compressing and Writing a footage file. Redcode compression is a magical piece of the Red technology that not enough people talk about. Scarlet hardware is not capable of compressing 5K footage at 24fps.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Yeah I don't remember reading anything official as to where the sensor in the Dragon Scarlet will originate from- same as the Epic Dragon or a new sensor all together.

 

[Brad Allen]

Quoting myself from an old thread because I couldn't be bothered redoing the figures, but the maths seems to say that 24fps 2.37 ratio 5k is possible with current hardware:

4K @ 30fps (Scarlet Current Max Data Throughput)
4096*2160 = 8847360 pixels * 30fps = 265420800 pixels per second

5K Widescreen (2.37:1) @ 24fps
5120x2160 = 11059200 pixels * 24fps = 265420800 pixels per second

Having said that, I'm in PAL land so 24fps isn't all that useful for me :'(

My guess is that Scarlet just takes a lower importance than other things going on at Red and/or they don't want to sabotage any of their Epic market

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I'm with you brad. I don't think we will see anything else come to the scarlet

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Quoting myself from an old thread because I couldn't be bothered redoing the figures, but the maths seems to say that 24fps 2.37 ratio 5k is possible with current hardware:



My guess is that Scarlet just takes a lower importance than other things going on at Red and/or they don't want to sabotage any of their Epic market

Check our Jarred's post on this page; without saying so directly, he seems to indicate that Redcode does not process pixels the same comparing vertical to horizontal: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?99014-Dragon-Update&p=1211623#post1211623

 

[Brad Allen]

Ahh I do remember reading that - however, that seems like further indication that 5K under Scarlet should already be possible since your not increasing the amount of "rows" but "columns". In the case of 5K 2.37:1, rows stay the same and columns go up + frame rate would come down from 30fps to 24fps

To quote Jarred for those interested:

Its not a complete free-for-all as remember the frame rate is determined not by the raw volume of pixels, but the volume of rows. To get higher frame rate, you need to reduce the number of rows.

So if yo have 5120x2700 frame size and a 4800x2700 frame size ( for example ) the framerate max is the same as the number of rows are the same... but you will get better compression numbers with the smaller number columns. And the inverse is true, If you change that to 5120x2700 vs 5120x2160, then your frame max rate goes up on the second one.

Perhaps the above is specific to dragon sensor and boards.

 

[Doug Beatty]

It has been mentioned that the sensor is, in fact, less pixels physically. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92999-Red-Dragon-Info-and-Data-Sheets and http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-dragon-upgrade are the closest I can find. But there was talk/speculation that a slightly smaller sensor size = more sensors yielded per wafer = cost savings = able to put out a Scarlet Dragon for a cost that makes sense.

Horse shoes and hand grenades. Lens coverage and Pixel Arrays do not refer to the physical sensor size. Scarlet Dragon has the same sensor as Epic Dragon, period. I stick to this notion unless Jarred or Jim go on record about making a 2nd, smaller sensor for Scarlet D.

The language in the Scarlet Dragon tech specs says 'Active' Pixel Array vs. Pixel Array in Epic Dragon tech specs.

I highly doubt Red has two assembly lines making two different sensors. Methinks it's not a matter or not having available sensor real estate to make 6K happen, but rather software throttling of Scarlet Dragon.

 

[Mike P.]

RED mentioned that they were working towards a pseudo-HDRx method for 4k back in 2011 when they started taking pre-orders. Hasn't been mentioned since, even to be taken off the table (a damned shame).

Personally, I'd much prefer a 4.5k WS mode (4480x1920) ala R1mx. This wouldn't encroach on Epic (MX or Dragon) and would give Scarlet users the much lauded "4k MTF" or actually resolved 4k that RED implemented the 4.5k mode for. It's kind of frustrating really, as now that Dragon is here, something tells me further MX developments (particularly on the Scarlet) are now dead in the water. We'll get monitor flip and maybe more energy saving... maybe even a proper stills mode (or was that officially taken off the table?), but all the big developments moving forward will be a Dragon-only affair (including RC4/RG4 apparently.)

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

It is a bit disappointing. Obsolescence is obsolete is not so true anymore, but the scarlet is still better than anything else out there for the price... So hopefully we will see some advances but not holding my breath in the least

RED mentioned that they were working towards a pseudo-HDRx method for 4k back in 2011 when they started taking pre-orders. Hasn't been mentioned since, even to be taken off the table (a damned shame).

Personally, I'd much prefer a 4.5k WS mode (4480x1920) ala R1mx. This wouldn't encroach on Epic (MX or Dragon) and would give Scarlet users the much lauded "4k MTF" or actually resolved 4k that RED implemented the 4.5k mode for. It's kind of frustrating really, as now that Dragon is here, something tells me further MX developments (particularly on the Scarlet) are now dead in the water. We'll get monitor flip and maybe more energy saving... maybe even a proper stills mode (or was that officially taken off the table?), but all the big developments moving forward will be a Dragon-only affair (including RC4/RG4 apparently.)

 

[Brad Allen]

RED mentioned that they were working towards a pseudo-HDRx method for 4k back in 2011 when they started taking pre-orders. Hasn't been mentioned since, even to be taken off the table (a damned shame).

Indeed - would be interesting to know what happened to this. It's still mentioned on their website: https://support.red.com/entries/22833723-Why-can-t-I-shoot-24fps-4K-HDRx-

Scarlet at the original announcement was also advertised as having 25fps HDRx @3k but that never seemed to come to fruition either:

Bit frustrating, but it's hard to be annoyed when the images coming off the camera look so great anyway. Maybe I'm stirring up the hornets nest by saying this, but I often feel like Scarlet is the forgotten step-son that Red wishes they no longer had to think about. I love the step son though - even if he is a bit neglected at times

 

[Mike P.]

OH MAN... I totally forgot about PAL - 25/50fps ... THAT must be incredibly frustrating. And it's that kind of oversight that really deters me from diving into a RED product early (aka pre-order anything.) Don't get me wrong, I knew what I was getting when I bought in and I understand the "everything changes" mantra, but that kind of exclusion from what most (all) would consider standard functionality can only harm a company's reputation... Kind of odd seeing how quickly people forget when the hype machine is running full steam though. And you're right; competing cameras haven't really started happening until recently.