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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I was wrrr...wrrrrong.

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Would it make any difference recording in a studio set-up to an external deck (say HDCAM SR or Wafian 2 at 1080P) -- would the Red 18-50 mm zoom offer 35 mm DOF in that situation? If not, what lens would be necessary?
 
hi Tim,

No, it wouldn't - it's a function of the sensor which will not do full raster at more than 60fps.

Pixar records 1.5k to their release prints, which are all made in emeryville if I remember right - they tested up to insane resolutions (I think as high as 6k) and decided that 1.5k was about right. Tells you a lot. Frankly I'd be just as happy with red if it was 2k+ (~3609px x 1536, 2.35:1), same size as the current chip, and up to 120fps.

4k is very cool, and projected it _is_ amazing, but I do see the problem of shooting what is effectively S16 high speed.

But, we are also talking about something which happily shoots 4k for ~40k with glass, and that alone is completely insane. ;)

_a
 
The HS windowed option is a great option!!!

To make good and easy use of this feature I intend to augment the two zooms and the set of Primes with a couple of these (or some S16 mrk 11 Super speeds)

www.cinematechnic.com/products/optar_illumina_lenses.html

This is not an expensive option and on any shoot there are compromises. I'm a little confused by peoples 'aghh if it can't do exactly ******* we're f**ked' attitude..

It wood be great if we get scaled 2k sooner than later but at the moment I'm just desperate to get my cameras.. And I say that as somebody whose day job always includes slowmo...

regards

Michael

ps I will probably replace(or compliment) the Red 15mm T3 with a T1.9 Zeiss UP 16mm as well. T3 S16 is a little fat to match up when using the centre for cropped work..
 
We are looking very forward to testing film record out tests of 2K vs 4K on RED - which we will be doing during the month of October on at least three different film recorders.

I actually suspect that 2K is going to look pretty damn good. The questions is, how much better does 4K look?

The short-term reality of film-record out from 4K is WAY beyond any indies budget level - that will change eventually as 4K records outs become ... competitive (who would have thought?)

The thing that we keep thinking of is long term archive of camera original data (you know ... "negative") - and the ability to pull print elements (stills) from any frame - and those two reason alone make a HUGE argument for shooting 4K over 2K on the Red.

The reality is - for Offhollywood, if our clients cut in proxy extractions from 4K .r3d material over a SAN, and we grade in Scratch from 4K .r3d - the ONLY difference in cost/price point for our clients on 2K vs 4K is:

1) amount of RAID storage (and redundant off-site LTO3 back-up)
2) amount of time to RENDER FINAL out of Scratch. One price for 2K render, one price for 4K render.
3) obviously the storage required for render out (see #2) - but this could be short-term RENTAL storage that just transports to film lab for record out. Client just keeps .r3d on LTO3's.

So in the case of working with us - there would be VERY little price difference between finishing in 2K vs 4K. We are still working on those numbers as we are testing so many things - but at the moment, speaking as a producer (which I also am) I would have to STRONGLY suggest shooting 4K on the Red for maximum long term market value and flexibility.
 
offhollywood said:
We are looking very forward to testing film record out tests of 2K vs 4K on RED - which we will be doing during the month of October on at least three different film recorders.

I actually suspect that 2K is going to look pretty damn good. The questions is, how much better does 4K look?

The short-term reality of film-record out from 4K is WAY beyond any indies budget level - that will change eventually as 4K records outs become ... competitive (who would have thought?)

The thing that we keep thinking of is long term archive of camera original data (you know ... "negative") - and the ability to pull print elements (stills) from any frame - and those two reason alone make a HUGE argument for shooting 4K over 2K on the Red.

The reality is - for Offhollywood, if our clients cut in proxy extractions from 4K .r3d material over a SAN, and we grade in Scratch from 4K .r3d - the ONLY difference in cost/price point for our clients on 2K vs 4K is:

1) amount of RAID storage (and redundant off-site LTO3 back-up)
2) amount of time to RENDER FINAL out of Scratch. One price for 2K render, one price for 4K render.
3) obviously the storage required for render out (see #2) - but this could be short-term RENTAL storage that just transports to film lab for record out. Client just keeps .r3d on LTO3's.

So in the case of working with us - there would be VERY little price difference between finishing in 2K vs 4K. We are still working on those numbers as we are testing so many things - but at the moment, speaking as a producer (which I also am) I would have to STRONGLY suggest shooting 4K on the Red for maximum long term market value and flexibility.
Click to expand...

Mark,

When we did some filmouts last year they were 2K CGI files delivered on a FW drive to Cinebyte (toronto) and they did a baselight correction and wrote it to film on the Arrilaser.

Our archive is:
1. An extra copy of the The negative
2. 270 prints
3. The 2k files.


I agree that, with the exception of overcrank or specialty shots, everything should be acquired 4K.

Thanks for sharing your workflows with the rest of us. It is a big help. Are you compressing the LTO-3 or leaving it uncompressed at half the capacity?

David
 
Well Done Off-Hollywood!

So an indie film production would finish in Scratch, render out 2K for a filmout and HDCAM (?) master for festivals, then save the project file in order to go back to it to easily create a 4K filmout or 4K Digital Projection master if a Distributor is found who wants to pay for it.

Path of least resistance eh.. that's a mini revolution in itself :-)

For indie indie indie productions would it be useful if Scratch could translate and convert Apple's color app project files?
 
mezmo said:
Yes 2K scaled with 35mm DOF @ around 75fps is in the works.
ETA? At the moment 4k with 35mm DOF @ 30fps to flash is the only option
or windowed with S16 DOF at hopefully 75 fps (for those in 50 cycle
countries) is the high speed option.
Click to expand...

Depth of field has nothing to do with the sensor. It has to do with the lens choice and the aperture. If you shoot the same field of view with the same lens at the same stop, you have the same depth of field. What that means is that if you frame something using, say, a 25mm lens on a 35mm camera, and shoot at, say, a 2.8, then put a 25mm lens on a 16mm camera and moved back to keep the same field of view and used the same stop, the depth of field would be identical. Depth of field is something a cinematographer can control. The key is knowing how to control it and having the physical space to do so.
 
Yeah dof will be the same but not the perspective, as you moved back with the 16mm camera. Physical space is a thing, but you might not want this "more far away from the subject" perspective.

To be able to switch from "digital 16mm" to "digital 35mm" on the same camera body is great.

antoine.
 
I'm all for 4k cameras.

But lets remember 4k does not mean all your shots will be sharp, it means that under ideal conditions they have the potential to resolve something around 4k.

Any lens issues, missed focus, motion blur... and you are well below the 4k target. We're shooting movies here, not test charts.

Shooting, or processing at a lower resolution may make your film feel a little more visually coherent, less of a difference between the frames where all the stars aligned and you got high resolution and the ones that did not. At least that will be true in the case of 2k scaled.

Anyway just a thought. Like I said in the beginning I'm all for 4k cameras !

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
CraigWB said:
Personally I would prefer to have Apple's color in a state where I wouldn't need to purchase Scratch to finalize my project you may as well skip Color all together at that point.
Click to expand...

Craig,

I have found that color works well when there is only one source. If you have a cuts and dissolves based feature narative, then you can get in and our of color relatively painlessly.

I think that REDCINE might render Color obsolete for RED footage as what might happen is you could cut proxies and then do final pass in REDCINE. I think REDCINE is going to be a much more impressive program than we expect.

This is just a hunch but I hope there is a workflow for REDCINE where we could take a media managed version of the 4K files (AFTER CUTTING THE PROXIE) and then open the files in REDCINE and do more than the one pass CC, do the final grade and relink to the FCP sequence, using an AJA card to send the footage back out to tape sources or QT to render out 2K TIFF sequences for filmouts. THAT would be a revolution.

Who knows what is going on at a pixel level with REDCODE better than RED. They could do a lot to revolutionize post workflows with REDCINE instead of depending on other expensive third party software and push the AJA and APPLE relationships. (two big players)

Big question? Will REDCINE have a V-OUT and use GPU processing to be able to grade on moving footage and not just based on still frames?

Anyone?

Graeme, Is this just Pie in the sky thinking or can REDCIEN be taken to this level?

David
 
battistella said:
Are you compressing the LTO-3 or leaving it uncompressed at half the capacity?

David
Click to expand...

we are about to EVAL a new LTO3 unit - so we are just starting down that road - I feel a little better not compressing - just doing 400G per LTO3 tape - but I need to get a little more insight and opinion on that - I just feel like at about $50 a tape - why compress - keep it clean - again, just about to start down the LTO3 road - I welcome opinions from folks with heavy LTO3 experience -
 
FYI:

We picked up an LTO-4 Drive about 2 months ago in prep for RED.. We're VERY happy with it. We went with the LTO-4 since we're looking at 800gb uncompressed and the cost factor was not that bad.

The tapes cost a little more, but I am very impressed with how well they are built. Like Tanks!

Jay
 
battistella said:
Craig,
I think that REDCINE might render Color obsolete for RED footage as what might happen is you could cut proxies and then do final pass in REDCINE. I think REDCINE is going to be a much more impressive program than we expect.
Click to expand...

I doubt REDCINE will have secondaries.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
FYI:

We picked up an LTO-4 Drive about 2 months ago in prep for RED.. We're VERY happy with it. We went with the LTO-4 since we're looking at 800gb uncompressed and the cost factor was not that bad.
Click to expand...
Do you mind telling what LTO is it ?
Thank you
Jean Luc Leon
 
LEON said:
Do you mind telling what LTO is it ?
Thank you
Jean Luc Leon
Click to expand...

From Wikipedia:

Linear Tape-Open (or LTO) is a magnetic tape data storage technology developed as an open alternative to the proprietary Digital Linear Tape (DLT). The technology was developed and initiated by Seagate, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM. The standard form-factor of LTO technology goes by the name "Ultrium".
 
thinkbug said:
From Wikipedia:

Linear Tape-Open (or LTO) is a magnetic tape data storage technology developed as an open alternative to the proprietary Digital Linear Tape (DLT). The technology was developed and initiated by Seagate, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM. The standard form-factor of LTO technology goes by the name "Ultrium".
Click to expand...

Thank you but please understand me, i am not asking what is LTO but rather which is the one he found solid as a tank,
Thanks anyway for enlighting people who did not know.
 
can't wait to see this high speed stuff. Wondering how Revisionfx's Twixtor will handle it in after effects. Has anybody tested? Drools over possibilities.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
FYI:

We picked up an LTO-4 Drive about 2 months ago in prep for RED.. We're VERY happy with it. We went with the LTO-4 since we're looking at 800gb uncompressed and the cost factor was not that bad.

The tapes cost a little more, but I am very impressed with how well they are built. Like Tanks!

Jay
Click to expand...

Jay which drive did you buy? Price?
 
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