I was there during the Sony F5/F55 presentation in Paris, here some cool features

[Justin Barham]

Majority users edit Red using transcoded Prores of MXF. So, why is Red workflow better?
People still don't understand the difference between editing and finishing...

+1

I keep on meaning to do a paper on editorial vs. finishing.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I can understand it if RED needs to continue firmly coupled to the propriety of GPU acceleration. Of course I would be able to buy an X60Ti capable of chewing through R3D 6k at a gazillion FPS, but you have to respect a company that has already chopped fine condiment out of the industry's price points... RED is the company that brought us from quarter million cameras to couple tenths for a base --system. All I can bring myself to asking of them at this point is that they incorporate both an overkill air cooling system a'la Twin Frozr, and talk to a good water block company and allow them to develop a custom water block coupled with slightly overclocked cards rated at a few FPS faster conversion.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Let people edit how they want to edit!!

Personally, I think it is a failure to not ask to be able to edit at FULL resolution. Give me a projector and the first copy of the original negatives. With digital we get to watch the ORIGINAL negatives! So why would you pass up the opportunity?!? Don't hate, edit the shit out of things and be happy with what you were able to do.

6k acquisition, 4k edit, 4k finish, 4k .RED

 

[Paul Harb]

[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

Originally Posted by jake blackstone [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Majority users edit Red using transcoded Prores of MXF. So, why is Red workflow better?
People still don't understand the difference between editing and finishing...[/FONT]

+1

I keep on meaning to do a paper on editorial vs. finishing.

You should, it seems most people dont seem to get it.

 

[Paul Harb]

This...

and what were you editing on? comfortably on a big tower?

lot of editors have to edit on the road, lower end laptop with just a lacie rugged on them. when you have 10+ tb of r3d is that something you want to be lugging around? would it be safe to be carrying high quality master files with, or better off to have low quality proxies in case something happens and somebody digs up the footage?

facilities also don't just take in one thing at a time, they have limited sans storage, even when they are in the pedabytes, when multiple shows and movies comes in, all that r3d, or other master 4k material eats it up fast. it makes more sense to have something like dnxhd 36 where you can cram all that in a few hundred gigs to work with. saves on sans storage, saves on the bandwidth they need to access their sans.


for the at home user or boutique places editing native is great. but the bigger the show, the more complicated it gets. not to mention workflows for vfx, where working natively isn't ideal at all, and especially when you are going to multiple vendors to get the work done. sometimes it's faster to start working on proxies and scale up with higher res material at the end. there are a lot of gears to be accounted for, and there is a reason why even a movie like prometheus decided to do a 2.5k dpx workflow instead of a 5k r3d workflow.

 

[Justin Barham]

Let people edit how they want to edit!!

Of course, people should edit and finish however they want if it's their own footage. And there shouldn't be just one specific way to do it. However, don't you feel like there's value in people with specific professional experience offering advice here for free? Why swat that away? I can assure you, I'm not trying to lead anyone astray here.

 

[Björn Benckert]

To me it's quite obvious. RED is the only one out there that let you edit the native files in 5k and soon 6k. Even though you only look at an extracted number of pixies while you edit like using 1/4 or so ress. That is still a huge advantage. Premiere is doing amazing things with r3d's. It's definitely so that editing the native files in premiere is a great option. Maybe not if you do a 10+ episodes of a TV series but if you cut your short film, feature or commercial then it's very much so that r3d native in premiere is an option that beats the others. You see full resolution when you pause and you can just render full res copies when ever wanted, and you do not run with dual files. Alexa raw and proress proxies is not even close and sony has the same issues.

As when being able to do your offline using the raw files you have the possibility to check the quality of the shots in a way a normal proxy/downress proress file never can.

So it's quite obvious that for straight editing the r3d path does not really have a match. But of course if you edit some efx heavy stuff and need to render in massive layers etc than maybe process proxy resolution is a better option. Or if you deal with a massive amount of material. But still the r3d's are not really that big and storage is usually not the bottle neck.

I love the fact that our editor can sit in one room and edit in premiere and while he is editing I can actually sit in the room next door with my macbook air and RCXP and do some primary grading on the clips he is using in his timeline without having to rendering a single frame.... how do you beat that workflow?

To me it's a big mystery that Mr Jannard have not got an oscar for the r3d format. To me this file format is way bigger than the cameras he made.

 

[jake blackstone]

Today there are many tools available to do many things. People edit in AE, do sound editing in FCP, composite in Resolve and color grade with pretty much anything they can get their hands on these days. We're not talking about those, shall we say "non conformist" types We're talking about SOP in the industry. Editing in 4K is not necessary and like it or not, it does get's in the way of creative editing. Many people still prefer to edit with tools of their choice, regardless of those tools being able to edit in 4K or not. May be once 4k shows become main stream affair, then I would be happy to revisit this subject. But for now, I'll stick with off-line edit/on-line finish.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If it's 3.5:1 is it still using wavelets? That would explain why they could GPU decode.

I actually would prefer RED move away from wavelets for its lighter compression settings on aquisition. When you use REDCode 3:1 you aren't doing much better than ZIP and ZIP seems to be considerably faster to decode as well as easy to break up into parallel tasks (e.g. scanlines).

 

[Justin Barham]

OK. Keep in mind that I'm just responding here with suggestions from my personal experience. Not animosity...

As when being able to do your offline using the raw files you have the possibility to check the quality of the shots in a way a normal proxy/downress proress file never can.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but editorial decisions are rarely (if ever) made on the basis of tiny details in the image not perceptible at 1080. It's about story, emotion, performance, rhythm, momentum, clarity, flow, etc. We aim to play our NLE instinctively, fluidly, like an instrument. Stuttering 4k files while trimming - or being limited to cutting only on certain beefy systems - works in complete opposition to our goal. In the rare case that we need to check a higher resolution than 1080, we can always pull up that specific R3D. Heck, Tree of Life was edited in standard def. Seemed to work out OK for Mallck.

I love the fact that our editor can sit in one room and edit in premiere and while he is editing I can actually sit in the room next door with my macbook air and RCXP and do some primary grading on the clips he is using in his timeline without having to rendering a single frame.... how do you beat that workflow?

You could one light the transcoded files. Or you could grade them during finishing, which happens after editorial. Or both.

Just my personal experience.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

There is a distinct different love for different workflows depending on what kind of work you do and not to mention the length of the projects we're working on.

6-12 hours of finnished TV, or even a feature in a large house or multiple houses, will probably more often than not be offline/online

More or less one-man-band/everything in same house/short form (like commercials), going the RAW route makes more sense.

But it's all about finding out what suits the current production. The options are good. Not bad.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It's about story, emotion, performance, rhythm, momentum, clarity, flow, etc. We aim to play our NLE instinctively, fluidly, like an instrument. Stuttering 4k files while trimming - or being limited to cutting only on certain beefy systems - works in complete opposition to our goal.

Hand. Glass. Raising.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hand. Glass. Raising.

!

 

[Justin Barham]

Hand. Glass. Raising.

haha cheers