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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I want to love the Raven but.....

D

Douglas Masters

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Guys, I am new to Red. But looking for some advice. I just purchased a Raven to see If I could up the production value of my videos. I shoot primarily in a studio with sets. My current Camera before the Raven is a BlackMagic Ursa Mini PRO 4.6K. I am not sure if this question is going to come from lack of experience or just me being nervous in switching my gear. I setup a test shoot with the Raven and the URSA 4.6K. Same Lens, Same Set, Same Focal Distance, Same Lighting Conditions. What I am noticing which bugs me to death is that the Raven just looks super cropped compared to the URSA 4.6K. For instance my set looks actually 2x bigger with the URSA 4.6K than with the Red Raven.

Is this due to the crop sensor on the Raven? Both are set at 4.6k URSA, 4.5K Raven I'm hoping this doesn't sound technically stupid but I am just looking for some advice from a more experienced Red User. I have absolutely 0 experience w/the camera to date. I like the image I get from the Raven better but the dynamic range seems to be less than this 4.6k URSA. I am not sure if you can even measure that in a studio but I am assuming this from what I am physically seeing on set from the camera. On paper this should not be the case but maybe I am using the word Dynamic Range out of context. Any help/opinions/advice would certainly be appreciated.
 
The sensor is smaller on raven so yes will look exactly the same as if the other image was cropped with the exact amount as there is difference in sensor size.

Regarding the DR differences, you need to make sure you compare from the clipping point. So a lot of light on the object shot, then expose so both sensors are right under clip, then check how much you find in the dark end of both sensors. Raven should haveabout 16 stop where Ursa has about 12.5 stops. But it´s not an exact science.

To me there ar e for sure differences between the two cameras, but yes Ursa has more sensor size and uncompressed and Raven has compression/r3d workflow and smaller sensor. But for just shooting something at regular framerate in a studio with controlled light I think the difference from just looking at the image is so slim that I would not worry to use one over the other.

In other words for what you are doing then I think it does not matter much what camera you are using.

To get the same field of view you simply need to use a wider lens on the raven.
 
Why switch from BM ursa mini pro to RED RAVEN when you do mainly studio work?.
The DR is about the same (14 ARRI stops).
 
darren scott said:
In which world is the Ursa mini pro 12.5 stops of DR ? Maybe you mean the 4k version...but certainly not the 4.6k sensor.
Click to expand...

I think he is referring to useable stops. It may capture 15, but if you look at tests you can really only manipulate 12-12.5 before running into noise issues. I would consider the claimed DR of any camera to be under ideal lighting conditions.
 
Motivation for raven would probably be matching other RED cameras and need for high frame rate (120fps) without cropping (between frame rates on same camera).
Doesn't sound like you need either
 
Geran Simpson said:
I think he is referring to useable stops. It may capture 15, but if you look at tests you can really only manipulate 12-12.5 before running into noise issues. I would consider the claimed DR of any camera to be under ideal lighting conditions.
Click to expand...

Well according to among the EBU it has 14 usable stop and for me way more important it has 14 stops I can work with.
When doing studio work you can achieve optimal lightning conditions with ease.
When you want more usable stops buy or rent an ARRI (or Varicam when you have time to switch over).

Every camera has it's pros. and cons., I just don't see the pros for Raven with studio work.
 
darren scott said:
In which world is the Ursa mini pro 12.5 stops of DR ? Maybe you mean the 4k version...but certainly not the 4.6k sensor.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my bad. Yes had that number from reading it someplace, it could have been the pocket BM or any BM camera. Don't know the numbers so well but I think the dragon sensor out preform pretty much any other cinema camera on DR except for helium. So what I mean is the BM camera has a slint hint of less DR then the red. But honestly it's not like those last stops of DR is making the image. They can save a pisspoor image to be acceptable but it not really the candy zone for exposure.

So as I wrote I think if you shoot in a studio any of the two would do. It would be odd if you could not create a comparable image with the two.

Then sure I like red and I would pick a raven before the mini 10 times out of 10 as it works with the rest of the stuff I got. Only sad thing with raven and the one reason I will never buy one is that it does not have exchangeable mounts. If it came just like the other reds with 4 screw holes and connections for mount electronics. It would make things different. I only have a few EF zoom lenses and I dont really like shoting with them. Especially not on a camera with small sensor as I find the image gets very dull and boring when using such small part of the projection of EF lenses.

I dont think the 3 extra mm on the Mini compared to the raven is doing a huge difference in image cropping, its about 10% of the image and as David says here that can easily be compensated for with a wider lens. But still I think for most EF glass you want to have like atleast a 30mm sensor to utilize the glass... and no I still I dont want to start collecting EF glas, or buy expansive new EF cine lenses with or without internal motor. Then I rather get PL lenses.
 
Personally the URSA 4.6K in this environment is kicking this raven's butt for what I am trying to accomplish. But that is just my personal preference. And no it does not have 12 stops of DR. More like 15. Not sure on how much is usable but you can definitely tell the difference. I did switch the Raven out to a 35mm Sigma to make up for the crop. I will need to test more to really see how much I like this Red. For the person who asked I bought the RED because I do like the look it creates and the HFR it offers. Red has a specific look which I love. However, With my lack of experience I will need more time to get comfortable with this camera and see what it really can do. Thank you all for taking the time to give me some feedback. I am obviously not very experienced with this Camera so I can't make claims without actually putting it to use. I will do that and see how it goes. Thanks again.
 
out of interest what 'specific look' do you mean?

For me the thing I like so much about the cameras are how they are very versatile and how many people have created unique looks with them.

EG Transformers looks nothing like Strangers Things looks nothing like Gone Girl looks nothing like Jessica Jones or Mr Robot.
 
I am more referring to the videos I have seen on it especially the video Carrion. However I am not a professional colorist so to achieve that level it might take me some more time to learn how to edit RedLogFilm. Here is a clip from my URSA Mini 4.6k just grabbed a still from the video Mermaid in a Cave /Studio =). I love this Camera hoping the Red can produce similiar results. The workflow is just a ton different so learning is a major factor in my post vs. the camera itself.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tbvnjjsrz5rjx4/Screenshot 2017-08-29 05.00.39.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyr9j0f6l85cu8g/Screenshot 2017-08-29 05.01.47.png?dl=0
 
I think you've come to a very sensible conclusion. Nothing wrong with doing more testing and coming back later, and doing a re-evaluation of your priorities/desires then.
 
Douglas Masters said:
I am more referring to the videos I have seen on it especially the video Carrion. However I am not a professional colorist so to achieve that level it might take me some more time to learn how to edit RedLogFilm. Here is a clip from my URSA Mini 4.6k just grabbed a still from the video Mermaid in a Cave /Studio =). I love this Camera hoping the Red can produce similiar results. The workflow is just a ton different so learning is a major factor in my post vs. the camera itself.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tbvnjjsrz5rjx4/Screenshot 2017-08-29 05.00.39.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyr9j0f6l85cu8g/Screenshot 2017-08-29 05.01.47.png?dl=0
Click to expand...



Fair enough. Carrion is a triumph of excellent art direction and design and lighting. If it had been shot on a phone it still would have looked good in my opinion. But yes it was a great example of what the camera can achieve when used in a proper production.

Your Ursa stills look great.
 
To get the best images out of the Red, you should always grade from RedLogFilm. That's the case with pretty much any camera. Even the outstanding Arri LogC to 709 LUT can be improved upon with some basic grading.
 
Thanks David this is what I have been doing. I am not a fan of dragoncolor2. It's good for monitoring but that's about it IMO.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
So (just out of curiosity) the 4,6 Ursa now has a usable OLPF? (Not meant to offend anyone, I am just curios)
Click to expand...

It has the same excellent OLPF as the ARRI ALEXA 65, but it is a bit noisier due to, among others, the smaller pixels.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Raven should haveabout 16 stop where Ursa has about 12.5 stops.
Click to expand...

Red lists the Helium and Dragon sensors in their tech specs as having 80db signal to noise ratio, which is around 13.2 stops.
http://www.red.com/products/weapon-8k#tech-specs

16+ is what they rate HDRx being. If the ursa 4.6K is 14-15 stops it makes sense the OP sees more useable dynamic range on the ursa if not using HDRx.
 
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