I heard something from an acquaintance today about a "Canon RED-Killer". . .

[Brandon Kraemer]

I think the whole terminology of -killer should be retired. I've read about hundreds of iPod-Killers and iPhone-Killers and as far as I can tell there hasn't been a single success along those lines. And the last company I expect to see a RED-killer come out of would be Canon...

Noah

I agree... it's a threat that rarely pans out. The last such product I can remember to be a so called killer was Media 100's so called "DS Killer" the 844x. Last I checked that product doesn't exist anymore, the DS does.

 

[Remy Carter]

I've spoken with a canon rep who thought that all independent film makers would move over to the 5D when it came out due to it "doing enough stuff that a Red can at a cheaper price." I couldn't believe my ears at what this guy was saying, but it doesn't surprise me when a rumor pops up about a "Canon Red-killer." Some people are just dreaming.

 

[Casey Green]

. . . it will supposedly sell for about $8000. Does anyone know anything about this "marvelous" new machine? I did a quick search but all I could find is a 5DMkII, which, although a marvel, is hardly a RED killer.

Any thoughts?

Stephen

It's called Scarlet.

;-)

 

[Peter Majtan]

All I know is that XL family will get APS-C sensor with EF/EFs mount at app. 12 MPx for bellow $10K. But this camera is destined to record MPEG-4 custom rate. I am sure this is going to be a great camera, but hardly a RED "killer". There is also rumors of few new "mechanical" lenses coming out specifically targeted at the D-Cinema market. Manual zoom/focus/aperture...

:devil:

 

[Andrew clemson]

I remember Jim saying something about not releasing specs too early, so that whatever the the other guys bring out today, it will only ever be as good as what RED was doing last year and not a scratch on what RED is doing tomorrow.

Im guessing even if Canon could release a 2K camera, its not going to be anywhere near as good as a 3K scarlet, and would be 3 times the price. I doubt they could even dream about touching the Pro RED Market, unless they start thinking about PL mounts and the like.

RED has it's market, and they have theirs. Let them stick to awesome Stills cameras and cheap point and shoot handycams.

 

[Jim Collins]

Too Late, Too Much, and Not Enouph

Too Late, Too Much, and Not Enouph

The Cannon appears to be missing two critical features. Redcode and Flexibility.

Redcode appears to be a very nicely optimized compromise between compressed and uncompressed recording.

The Scarlet/Epic is so much more versatile. Infinitely greater lens selection with all the mounts that will be available for it. Infinitely greater physical flexibility with the modular construction. if you need pro-audio you can put it on. If you don't need pro-audio you can leave it off. And right now we only have the barest glimmering of what modules Red is actually going to make.

I look at the Cannon and try to imagine the waterproof housing it is going to go inside. It is going to be huge. And that means it is going to be really heavy getting it in and out of the water. Scarlet is going to be beautiful. And it's going to shoot better pictures.

In five years the Cannon is going to be obsolete and you will throw it away. I can see a lot of the Scarlet/Epic modules being used for multiple generations of brains. In five years the s35 Scarlet could outperform the 2009 s35 Epic. And all you will have to do is to buy a new brain. All your accessories and lenses will move right over.

Cannon would have been in okay shape if they had come out with this a year ago. Now they are just too late. They aren't even beating Sony let alone Red.

 

[michael zaletel]

Sad thing is that no matter how it lacks, Canon will sell a crapload of them, whatever they are, and whatever the price (within reason). Ever wonder how jewelry stores in the mall survive and why people pay twice as much for books at Barnes & Noble? Canon is an incredible brand with a phenomenal marketing and distribution network.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

 

[Joel Kaye]

Cannon would have been in okay shape if they had come out with this a year ago. Now they are just too late. They aren't even beating Sony let alone Red.

I think a lot of you guys have no idea how big Canon, Nikon and Sony really are. These guys have millions of units out there and a worldwide distribution system. If Canon's SLR division swallows the video division and licenses Cineform they'll be dangerous.

C'mon. Eventually there's going to be a $3000 camera with the capabilities of RED. Canon is as likely to have as anyone else to do it. It's an awful lot to assume they can't come up with a good codec. I'm sure a million dollar check to Cineform would get them something fast. It may be a few years from now and they may be copying RED at that point...

 

[Shane Betts]

Whatev!

Whatev!

The reality is that, at some point, there will be another camera out that does what the RED One does. Hopefully by then RED will have cameras that do so much more. Nobody gets it all their own way (don't tell my ex-wife) but the discussion is largely moot. No matter what comes over the horizon, the RED One will still deliver stunning 4k images, record clean sound and take PL mount lenses. Excepting tech envyists (is that a word?), we don't need to be concerned. The camera we now have, and the Epic or Scarlet we buy later this year or next, will continue to do exactly what we bought it to do. So rather than worrying and stressing, I feel excited about how the competition will drive each manufacturer to raise the bar. We, the users, will be the winners.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Red Users have nothing to worry about for a good two years.

 

[Jim Collins]

The big guys have an Achilles heel.

The big guys have an Achilles heel.

The big guys Achilles heel is their greed. The want to sell cameras to consumers for $1000 and cameras to professionals for $10,000. The are terrified that professionals will buy the $1000 cameras instead so they deliberately cripple them with features like AHCVD. Sony could come out with a $1000 1080 30/24p Redcode Clone camera overnight if they wanted to. All it would take is a firmware upgrade to the HDR-XR200V. And if they put a decent lens on it they would actually have a rather slick little camera. But they won't because they are afraid it will cost them some sales for the EX1.

My impression is that if someone shoots a major motion picture with 2/3" Scarlets instead of s35 Epics Jim Jannard is just going to say Cool! And that is why you are going to see more movies shot on Scarlet than any Scarlet killer.

 

[Isaac Brody]

The one area that Canon really has against Red is their performance at higher ISO's. Shooting at 1600 and 3200 ISO and actually getting usable results is one area where they can really deliver.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Technology is developing FAST. And one thing is for sure. Canon's Cmos technology is top class, at least on par with Red's Misterium technology.

The question here is time: When are we going to see a Scarlet or an Epic? Obviously if we are talking about sub 10k, we are talking Scarlet territory. If we are comparing an APS-C sensor Canon, we should be comparing it to a Red Scarlet S35. Could a ready to shoot Scarlet S35 be introduced at bellow 10k?

Also, lets not forget Workflow and ready to shoot price. A Sub 10k Canon camera should come with recording module, lens, Built in LCD and VF, and a codec that should be inferior to RED CODE, but would be compatible and editable with most Prosumer editing gear- Final Cut Pro, Premiere, Vegas, Avid.

Currently, to be able to work with RED CODE natively its a hassle and requires a very big investment in Post-Production. This will change with Red Rocket, but it will cost an additional 4k. And when will this be introduced? What editors will be able to benefit from it, and at what time frame? These are all considerations to have.

Blockbusters have been shot with XL-H1's that where sold for millions of dollars. If a Canon camera is introduced with the said specs, it will literally obliterate its past models in all aspects: H264 high bitrate vs HDV 25Mbs, Sensor size and resolution, low light, optics, etc. In a time when HD broadcast will be limited to 1080i for the next decade(s), and Cinema production being done sucessfuly in 1920x1080p cameras (Genesis, for example) with no discerning distractions from the audience, I can foresee that, as Indies are jumping, for example, to the 5d Mark II bandwagon, even with its hassles, many more will follow if a "proper" video camera comes out with the 5d's features. It will most probably not eat into RED EPIC sales, but will most certainly afect Scarlets.

Like a previous poster said, Canon is a HUGE corporation, and its pro video Market is not that significant (YET), so they don't need to protect it as much as, say, a Panasonic or Sony. If they really invest in this market, they have every possibility to dominate it.

 

[Cory Schulthies]

The more companies in this space the better. i like red, and i doubt Canon will have anything comparable for years to come, however competition will make all cameras better. you can already see what the competition Red has given is doing to the marketplace. the big boys are sitting up and paying attention now.

 

[Andrew clemson]

the big boys are sitting up and paying attention now.

Thats all we can ask for. Canon and Nikon have their strongpoints, as does RED. Just look at all the Nikon or Birger Mounts out there. I dont think its ever going to be a case of someone "killing" RED. I think the biggest difference is that Jim and the other guys are doing it for the love of the craft, where as Mr Canon is doing it to buy his next Lamborghini. To that end, I think RED will always have an edge, because they know what people want, sometimes long before they ask for it.

 

[Peter Moretti]

... Sony could come out with a $1000 1080 30/24p Redcode Clone camera overnight if they wanted to. All it would take is a firmware upgrade to the HDR-XR200V. ...

Dude, be good to yourself please, and lay off the crack. :sifone:

 

[Enrique Blein]

I find the "silence" of Sony and Canon in NAB 2009 as meaningful. I read it as: "We are not going to rush behind Red, we will produce a camera to compete in our own times and conditions". Red NEEDs to output a camera soon because they are delayed till too close to NAB 2010, people might hang on and wait for Sony and Canon's answer. I am a long time Sony user and though I hate their miser merchandising charging money for every little advancement they make, I use their equipment, under many weather conditions. I am in for a 2/3 rd Scarlet, but if Sony were to deliver (ha ha , I know) a camera with the same specs, I would keep using Sony.

Red, Save Me From Sony!

 

[Dominic Jones]

Sony have a camera that competes. It's called the F-35.

In the high-end market, it's competing quite favourably with the R1 now. At the level most people here are at (myself included) it's generally out of budget for hire, and totally out of budget for purchase - but that doesn't mean it's not doing good business elsewhere.

So, I'm not sure Sony are all that worried about Red's market impact - perhaps they are, but perhaps not...

Also, bear in mind that pro video is a very small part of Sony's armory - it's more of a flagship status factor to drive prosumer/consumer sales than anything else for them, and even the consumer video market is a part of a much larger entertainment and electronics wing, that part of the whole conglomerate. They won't want to loose out too badly, but I would guess that unless and until Red (or anyone else) starts seriously denting their consumer sales, they won't be sweating too badly.

Cheers,
Dom.

 

[Liam Hall]

So, I'm not sure Sony are all that worried about Red's market impact - perhaps they are, but perhaps not...

They were having a good old moan about Red at their recent shindig at Molinaire. I had a cameraman ring me up telling me all sorts of BS he heard from the Sony boys.

 

[M Most]

I think the biggest difference is that Jim and the other guys are doing it for the love of the craft, where as Mr Canon is doing it to buy his next Lamborghini.

This is a joke, right?