I came, I saw, I believe...

[Emery Wells]

Ok so that title is slightly misleading because I have always believed in the RED program but hear me out... Like many of you, I've been excited about the prospect of Alexa. Arri knows a thing or two about cameras and it seemed like they were finally going to get this one right. When the workflow news about ProRes came amount I thought to myself 'oh ok, they are listening, they get it.' I was actually really happy to see RED finally had some competition. Competition is good right? Pushes everyone further?

Well I'm on my flight back to NYC after spending a week in Vegas and let me tell you, Alexa has got NOTHING on EPIC. The EPIC program is years ahead of Alexa. Alexa will attract a certain group of Hollywood elite that refuse to embrace RED because it's the disruptive 'every mans' camera that makes those Hollywood elite a little less elite. Bold words from someone who hasn't seen a comparative analysis of the two systems? Maybe. But I'd bet my company that EPIC dominates the market.

Truly excited to take one of these babies home after holding the working model today. REDs only competition is RED.

BTW, incase anyone missed it, RED has entered the lighting businesses starting with HMIs.

 

[jimhare]

Nicely said Emery! Can not WAIT until my Epic arrives. So excited that it will be this year.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Arri making cameras for 97 years..Im sure they dont care about prices and selling more units.Their main goal is Hollywood in this case again...Who will buy Double priced Arri camera instead of there is way better Epic

 

[Nook Kim]

so... let me get this straight..

EPIC = a butt kick

RED HMI = a smack in the face

Do I have it right? It must hurt more than a little bit

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Alexa can't compete even with R1MX and EPIC technology is unreachable for ARRI in years.

Elites owe the most of Hollywood and worldwide broadcast networks.

But RED DC with its first camera R1 took a lot of their cake.

This "war" continues at all fronts and there are many "heavy" battlefields to come.

RED should continue to upgrade R1 software, hardware like with MX and even offer HDSDI 1080p upgrade part till EPIC is start to ship.

RED DC should work out to get ASAP R1MX bundled with AJA KiPro ProRes recorder and 1000 bucks BM DaVinci Resolve grading software.

Also to get strategic relationships with those two companies, AJA and BM.

Those are some of a "small" ideas how to win this particular digital cine camera "war".

Diplomacy is a nice from outside just because only a great intelligence together with R&D can save your "ass".

 

[Michael Hastings]

Alexa can't compete even with R1MX and EPIC technology is unreachable for ARRI in years.

If RED developed Epic in about 4 years with no background, why is that technology "unreachable" by Arri that already had a head start in cameras, digital cinema, etc.? Doesn't make any sense.

In the beginning startups have an advantage because they don't have to worry about cannibalizing other business/markets, but once they have proven the viability of the concept - in this case dSLR s35 sensor technology applied to motion pictures at affordable PURCHASE prices - other companies see the need to compete and do respond even though it may take a couple of years to ramp up. We are just now seeing that competition get serious.

I believe RED has a 6 to 9 month lead in technology development and another 6 to 9 months of cushion based on larger companies need to be conservative in how they roll out new products into their existing product mix. Therefore, I am very happy to be in the early batches of Epic, and since the Epic so closely fits my wishlist for features and configuration(s) even if other companies can match its performance I think I will be happy with the Epic for years to come.

I think Alexa will compete quite well in the rental market (particularly higher end televsion and to some extent features), and Epic will be the owner/operator camera of choice. As Epics gain a stronger reputation it will make inroads in the rental market and Arri will need to introduce the next generation.

We are in for a very interesting next few years.

 

[Tim Morten]

If RED developed Epic in about 4 years with no background, why is that technology "unreachable" by Arri that already had a head start in cameras, digital cinema, etc.? Doesn't make any sense.

Very good question... BUT, if Alexa is the best Arri could do, there seems to be something holding them back, IMO. R&D dollars? Corporate decision-making baggage? Fundamental philisophical impediments? I don't know. All I can say is that I'm a lot more impressed by Epic than I am by Alexa so far. I look forward to seeing a real image test, but even if the DR is comparable, it's going to be hard to convince me that 1080p is a competetive or that the price makes any kind of sense.

This was Arri's chance to prove your point, but for me at least, I do not feel that they have succeeded.

- Tim

 

[shashbugu]

I think Alexa will compete quite well in the rental market (particularly higher end Television and to some extent features), and Epic will be the owner/operator camera of choice. As Epics gain a stronger reputation it will make inroads in the rental market and Arri will need to introduce the next generation.

Emm!!! Don't put your eggs in the Arri basket, the real competition is Sony. The is no such thing as the higher end film or Television market anymore, There's only a Grey area. The only cameras that are a budgetary concern in television business are ENG Cameras. The only surviving high end market is Commercial productions, and those rely heavily on talent not equipment. That old world mentality of higher priced better brand name mentality is out the door.
Prime example is the show "24", too expensive to produce. Audiences can't the difference between Arri 2k and Red 4K. Rental houses are profit generating businesses, a fully kitted Arri is three times the price of a fully kitted EPIC, the rental rates initially will be almost the same, in LA numbers almost $1900 a day. The Only thing Arri has going for it, right now is Pro-res 444. but the one week price of rental will get you a RED Rocket......

 

[Guidofilippi]

Very good question... BUT, if Alexa is the best Arri could do, there seems to be something holding them back, IMO. R&D dollars? Corporate decision-making baggage? Fundamental philisophical impediments? I don't know.

- Tim

In my opinion, it may well be related to the 2nd and 3rd causes you list. Any movement in ARRI used to involve triplicate paperwork. Nonetheless, I understand they make the big money out of lighting equipment, not cameras (I think this is the case of rental houses too). They made and sold 19,000 cameras in 90 years... how many lighting fixtures? don´t know, but surely maaaany more...
Anyway, we can say Red is "guilty" of making Alexa cost "only" some 60 Grands, instead of 200!
Guido

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Alexa is just stripped down version of D20/D21 camera design with newer better sensor.

In the last "15 minuets" of the game ARRI added ProRes SxS recording just to stay competitive in broadcast market that for actually it was designed.

ARRI couldn't bring anything new technologically except that made camera that could finally pay its own R&D.

R&D costs of D20/D21 put already ARRI camera department in a financial troubles compared with other ARRI divisions.

That's all more or less a real ARRI business life story.

 

[K. cromwell]

Ok so that title is slightly misleading because I have always believed in the RED program but hear me out... Like many of you, I've been excited about the prospect of Alexa. Arri knows a thing or two about cameras and it seemed like they were finally going to get this one right. When the workflow news about ProRes came amount I thought to myself 'oh ok, they are listening, they get it.' I was actually really happy to see RED finally had some competition. Competition is good right? Pushes everyone further?

Well I'm on my flight back to NYC after spending a week in Vegas and let me tell you, Alexa has got NOTHING on EPIC. The EPIC program is years ahead of Alexa. Alexa will attract a certain group of Hollywood elite that refuse to embrace RED because it's the disruptive 'every mans' camera that makes those Hollywood elite a little less elite. Bold words from someone who hasn't seen a comparative analysis of the two systems? Maybe. But I'd bet my company that EPIC dominates the market.

Truly excited to take one of these babies home after holding the working model today. REDs only competition is RED.

BTW, incase anyone missed it, RED has entered the lighting businesses starting with HMIs.

Nice I am sure EPIC will do more (they are in constant communication with the very people that use it). Plus I love how they make both the hardware and software for their cameras.

Emery where in NY are you?

 

[Steve G]

R&D costs of D20/D21 put already ARRI camera department in a financial troubles compared with other ARRI divisions.

That's all more or less a real ARRI business life story.

And your evidence to back up your statement is........

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

No so much evidences in German business where you even do not know publicly how much

are earning all those CEOs and also how much they are paying taxes ...

It's not so common to know that facts or what is going on there with any of evidences except

if you are not working for well known German secret police (in DRR its called the East German secret police STASI...)....

That's more something to do with a local or country's national mentality and manners...

It's something more described as a snake that is "hiding" its legs for many millenniums...

But you can see it as a good "market" or "financial" analyst also psychologist from what kind of maneuvers were coming all those certain decisions and steps...

 

[Barend Onneweer]

No so much evidences

So you're basically making things up?

 

[Steve G]

No so much evidences in German business where you even do not know publicly how much

are earning all those CEOs and also how much they are paying taxes ...

It's not so common to know that facts or what is going on there with any of evidences except

if you are not working for well known German secret police (in DRR its called the East German secret police STASI...)....

That's more something to do with a local or country's national mentality and manners...

It's something more described as a snake that is "hiding" its legs for many millenniums...

But you can see it as a good "market" or "financial" analyst also psychologist from what kind of maneuvers were coming all those certain decisions and steps...

??????

Stereotyping a nation, based on the actions of the secret police who operated a long time ago ? Paranoid ramblings.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Steve,

but I'm working and living in German speaking country (Austria) that toady financially and also culturally depends on Germany a lot.

Btw, and Austrians do not like it so much that fact at all but that is a reality now....

So tell me what are your experiences in that direction?

I'm not a paranoid at all and do not impose any sort of stereotypes here because simply I do not need them.

If there are a sort of stereotypes inside I would not be so guilty about them because this is how it is, take it or leave it.

And I always pretend a sort of constructive discussion even if I can speculate about some of the things important to all of us REDUsers...

 

[Steve G]

Steve,

but I'm working and living in German speaking country (Austria) that toady financially and also culturally depends on Germany a lot.

Btw, Austrians do not like it so much....

So tell me what are your experiences in that direction?

I'm not a paranoid at all and do not impose any sort of stereotypes here because simply I do not need them.

I always pretend a sort of constructive discussion even if I can speculate about some of the things important to all of us REDUsers...

Experiences in that direction ? Not sure exactly what you mean..... I've worked in Germany and Austria. I have German and Austrian friends. I know about the relationship between Germany and Austria.

What is it you want to know about my experiences ?????

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Steve,

I'm asking myself are you a right person for this sort of discussion?

It's very simple: You want to get it or you really do not want to get it!!??

The things are not so "flat" as you would might have think or you wanted to present...

But now anyway we are getting pretty out of the topic of the tread...

 

[Steve G]

Steve,

I'm asking myself are you a right person for this sort of discussion?

It's very simple: You want to get it or you really do not want to get it!!??

The things are not so "flat" as you would might have think or you wanted to present...

But now anyway we are getting pretty out of the topic of the tread...

You want to flex intellectual muscle ? Anytime, Sanjin. But you will have to start talking sense. Name the time and the place.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

When ever you come over in Vienna I'll invite you for a chat and a glass of house-made bear in my neighborhood:

Salm Bräu >>>