HYDROKOMODO. 3 years and still waiting

[Greg M]

you never bought a product before that didn't meet expectations or was a failure? I dont get this expectation that people are owed something because a product didn't meet expectations, especially considering we all had an opportunity to return it for a full refund...you waited 3 yrs, seriously whats another 2 months?

And this is from someone who bought 3 H1's...they never rocked my boat either. I should have returned them all, but I didnt...and now 3 years later I will be grateful when the time comes to take advantage of the $1000 gift im not owed because I was foolish enough to buy a unproven product from a company that never produced a phone before. I also still have that Betamax and Apple Newton, neither of which changed the world as promised...maybe I should hit Sony and Apple up for a $1000 discount too


BTW- Komodo will be at least $6000, and the Stormtrooper is $7000

 

[Christopher A. Bell]

Today 3 years ago we got the announcement of the new project hinted by Jim.
3 years ago today, I immediately bought one (and then bought a second one).

I might have misunderstood, but we were buying into a revolutionary portable media machine, powered by RED minds.
Something that would allow us to take photo and video to a new revolutionary place.

It took about 16 months to get it delivered. And when it came... let's just say that the market speaks for itself.
I was personally very disappointed in the overall experience, and I reduced my time on the forums due to that reason. It made me lose the excitement I have for RED.
Meanwhile the module promised never came, but it got shifted back into RED hands, and from Hydrogen, we are now into Komodo.

Komodo is a very different product from Hydrogen, and also a very different product from what an H1 plus module would have been.
It is not even an HydroKomodo, as I mention in the title. It is a new camera module by RED.

I understand we H1 owners might get some sort of deal on the Komodo. I feel that for all the effort we made and the commitment of paying for a product, waiting 15 months for it, and never get what was promised, it hasn't been fully rewarded. I always like the stormtrooper idea, but maybe this time was better to look into the rebels? Instead of soldiers of the evil empire, reward the people who have been waiting 3 (THREE) years for a product?

An H is a $1000 investment. A Komodo is $5000. Am I now supposed to spend 4K for a product just because otherwise I lose the benefits of buying another one that did not work?
And what if I want what was promised?
What if I didn't want a Komodo, but a H2? A portable media machine? Not another camera.

I am sorry to vent. 3 years is a long time. Seeing the stormtroopers out, and not being even offered one without having to follow IG and the forum constantly, it makes me a bit upset.
I am still a fan of RED. I like the quality of the products and I like the team. I am just wishing I got what I paid for 3 years ago.

If you had bought $1000 worth of Apple stock three years ago, THAT would have been an investment. You spent $1000 on a cell phone, that was NEVER going to be worth even as much as you paid for it, the second after you bought it.

 

[Med D]

I think the sting is partly due to the way Hydrogen was "introduced". So many insiders peaked behind the curtain and said nice things, it got quite a few people excited. It was kind of like RED's version of the Fyre festival really. And you are right, the Fyre people are not getting any of their money back, so I guess everyone should be happy with the Komodo discount. The good news is that Komodo seems to be greatly exceeding everyone's expectations.

I do think though that there should have been a special color just for H-buyers, it would have gone a long way towards making this sting go away once and for all. It's stilll not too late to do that.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hydrogen is interesting to look at in retrospect now as I stare at some of the newer premium models in front of me. I think a lot of mud was slung, but it was likely hard to come out with a first generation product in a world where premium phones that are several generations deep and mature.

Stuff that was really rough:
- Fingerprint scanner failures, hardware related. That was a sonofa.
- It didn't bother me that they used the lower horse power processor, but it didn't sit well with some.
- Launch Apps were a bit too early, the H4V related stuff. Seemed like notable leaps 2 months, 4 months, and 6 months after launch. I'd say that critical first 2 month batch of updates would have influenced influencers slightly differently, but not in a world where they are used to very mature systems.

Big ideas that didn't fully land, but kinda did too:
- H4V. Kinda ahead of it's time for mass market and certainly interesting seeing a full capture and display solution. Generation 2 and 3 of this tech would/will be more appealing.
- H4V "ecosystem" - Holopix and subsequent surrounding apps and such were interesting. Essentially everything was being built from the ground up to support this, even movies. Holopix was fun though and there was a great creative energy there as people explored what they could do with H4V.

Gotta commend Jim for having such a big idea and trying to create all that at once. I mean that really was a new phone brand, new tech for a lot of people, Instagram, App Store, and mobile Netflix/VOD as well as a few other things.

Stuff that I think were really good ideas:
- Rugged body design. Not glass, but rather Aluminum and Titanium and likely the only premium phone that's come out in recent history that didn't "need" a case to protect it from common drops and body shattering damage. I dropped my Al and it dented. I dropped my Ti multiple times, no physical damage.
- Going to underline how nice the Titanium body itself was. Very nice material I think should be explored more. Has a history being used in still cameras as well.
- Knurled grips - Also common on cases, but this phone didn't really have the opportunity to slip out of your hand without a case.
- Big battery - Shockingly Hydrogen had a big battery (4500mAh) that after a couple years of use would still hold a charge for 2-3 days. Not something that could be said for any premium models currently.
- No notch, but rather a forehead and chin. Really loathe notches for front facing cameras. That gets solved this decade luckily for the companies still doing that.

I've got strong thoughts about smartphones and I'm somewhat constantly impressed and confused by every major release. Use the Galaxy Note Ultra 20 as a good example. With such a device at again a premium price point, having that camera bump and not perhaps having a model with an expressively large battery adding thickness to the phone seems like a weird oversight. That phone could have a 9000mAh battery, run twice as long, lay flat on a table, and there is 100% a market for that even if they charged another buck or two for it. I mean if you're in and committed for a device this large, you'd be down for more power for sure.

I do like Apple's most recent design language expressed in the iPad Pro coming into the iPhones with the straighter harder sides. Their refinement of multi-camera is clean and only going to get better.

Last 3 years have unfolded a bit into premium smartphones are now essentially small laptops. Stuff you can actually toss up on a screen, plug in a keyboard and mouse (or Bluetooth em), and get work done on them. More so than ever. Apple and Samsung are real tuned into that power user as of late. General consumers don't need all the horses, but it appears everyday these things are getting more powerful. Some overseas models are doing some pretty wild dual charge/dual battery stuff for real fast recharging. I mean there's coolers for gaming phones even.

With the cameras in the phones where they are now and likely will be shortly I think a Hydrogen 2 with "weirdly large for a smartphone sensor", triple cameras or perhaps a single camera disc rotary system/turret lens setup, using those forehead and chin caverns for large foam/plastic chamber speakers. Perhaps recording into a somewhat decent bitrate H.265 RWG/Log3G10 image perhaps. That I think perhaps could have been the potential.

I will echo my thoughts though that the Camera Module versus Komodo were two different beasts. From an image makers perspective I think Komodo is far more forward thinking to use with and without a phone and certainly much more production friendly.

Back to phones. With devices now on faster product cycles from numerous brands and consumers generally holding onto devices for one full generation/1 year cycle or usually up to 3 years, occasionally 5 years; it's a bit hard to look at the mobile market. Not to mention the various sizes and versions for that matter. Phones won't ever hold their value as an investment, perhaps as a collector's item, but they are replaced too quickly and often put on sale very shortly after launch. Just like cameras, cars, and well anything they lose value the second you buy it, open it, and power it on. Now the market is dynamic with all the price points being hit and I'm betting shortly we'll see even more expensive phones outside of the exotic stuff that's already out there. Meanwhile there's still a market and audience for the low end and everything in between.

The only value I can put on a premium IOS or Android device is in the fact that I am a power user. The phone aspect of a smartphone is probably the thing I do the least with these devices now, though that's a fundamental feature. The device itself is too tangled into how I communicate, create, and connect with all sorts of things. Too many bloody things I use now have apps to control them, which is actually good, but it's sort of nuts where this is going. Which is likely how and why things are continuing to develop in the ways they are.

Sorry, long post, just thoughts.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I will echo my thoughts though that the Camera Module versus Komodo were two different beasts. From an image makers perspective I think Komodo is far more forward thinking to use with and without a phone and certainly much more production friendly.

As much as I've facepalmed at myself for getting the Hydrogen, the discount Komodo is well worth it. If I can also use the Hydrogen as a monitor on Komodo, or turning it into my director's monitor with wifi video it will, in the end, be a good investment. I just wish us discount people got a bit more info and a bit of a timeframe for when we can start orders. As well as some info on how we could make use of the Hydrogen together with Komodo. Since the phone has connectors on the backside, I would also hope that we might have some Komodo to adapter case cable in the future where we can get high-speed control through the phone, just like a normal attached Red monitor.

 

[Kwan Khan]

If I can also use the Hydrogen as a monitor on Komodo, or turning it into my director's monitor with wifi video it will, in the end, be a good investment.

I have 6 H1 and currenlty pairing up with Inkee Ben Box (with wifi app) for all my muliticam shoots, work well however it has 150ms Latency. I would love to see H1 + Komodo works together via Wifi or any adopter or any type of hardwire conector.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

As much as I've facepalmed at myself for getting the Hydrogen, the discount Komodo is well worth it. If I can also use the Hydrogen as a monitor on Komodo, or turning it into my director's monitor with wifi video it will, in the end, be a good investment. I just wish us discount people got a bit more info and a bit of a timeframe for when we can start orders. As well as some info on how we could make use of the Hydrogen together with Komodo. Since the phone has connectors on the backside, I would also hope that we might have some Komodo to adapter case cable in the future where we can get high-speed control through the phone, just like a normal attached Red monitor.

The Komodo pogo to Hydrogen pogo connector has been scrapped. Hydrogen will connect to Komodo via USB-C like all other phones. There will be a generic cradle to hold any phone, so it will not use the Hydrogen magnets. I've asked a couple times but have not heard whether the Komodo will power the phone when connected (really hope so, as it will now use the USB port, and you can't just swap out phone batteries). Obviously this all may have changed by now, but it is the most recent info as far as I know.

 

[Greg M]

The Komodo pogo to Hydrogen pogo connector has been scrapped. Hydrogen will connect to Komodo via USB-C like all other phones. There will be a generic cradle to hold any phone, so it will not use the Hydrogen magnets. I've asked a couple times but have not heard whether the Komodo will power the phone when connected (really hope so, as it will now use the USB port, and you can't just swap out phone batteries). Obviously this all may have changed by now, but it is the most recent info as far as I know.

Komodo doesnt "connect" to any phone via USB-C...if you really want to use H1, it will need to be a wifi connection via the app when its available for Android. There are better options though

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Komodo doesnt "connect" to any phone via USB-C...if you really want to use H1, it will need to be a wifi connection via the app when its available for Android. There are better options though

This is where I think Red should do a cable that fits Hydrogen. They already know the internal components of the H1, so it would be a no brainer for them to make a cable attachment that works between the Komodo and H1.

I think, that a good second-hand use of that phone would actually be to change the phone's OS entirely into a monitor system that works through WIFI or cable, where the attachment to the phone has a battery slot for increased battery use on the H1. I mean, this phone is dead, it's gonna be super dead in a few months, so why can't we just change it into something that's pretty high standard monitor for the value it has. I think it's such a waste that we can't make use of this brick that for many just collects dust on a shelf (like mine). I plan to use it as my Komodo monitor system for wireless, but there's so much potential in this thing that I think gets wasted if we don't create that potential. At least open up the source codes for it so that some bright coder like Mikael Foolcontrol could engineer a Red monitor-OS that replaces Android on it.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Komodo doesnt "connect" to any phone via USB-C...if you really want to use H1, it will need to be a wifi connection via the app when its available for Android. There are better options though

Don't think I want to use a phone as my primary monitor, but it's nice to have it as a backup.

As far as I recall, the plan was to have a wired connection and a phone cradle. Did this change?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Don't think I want to use a phone as my primary monitor, but it's nice to have it as a backup.

As far as I recall, the plan was to have a wired connection and a phone cradle. Did this change?

If you change Android into a dedicated monitor OS with an integrated Red Control App, then it's not really a phone anymore. It's then also able to record back to camera metadata stuff that a phone generally has that a cinema camera doesn't, like better Gyro data for post stabilization, directly into the R3D files.

I mean, there's so much that could be done if the source code for the phone were unlocked and integrated into how the camera and phone interact. At least as trial run and then Red could make a real monitor product out of the tech later on.

Really hope Red or Jarred is reading this :tongue_smilie:

 

[Les Hillis]

The way I see it, any developments that happen in regards to phones and Komodo will have nothing to do with Hydrogen in particular. So if people want to push for more phone integration, it'd be better to just leave any Hydrogen-specific details/requests out of it. It may be that things get developed in ways that allow Hydrogens to be better used in conjunction with the Komodo (and DSMC3), but I imagine Hydrogen integration itself isn't even on the list of priorities at RED.

Just editing to add I do like the idea of RED opening up options in regards to monitoring and data-gathering/manipulation, so don't want to seem dismissive of the whole idea.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The way I see it, any developments that happen in regards to phones and Komodo will have nothing to do with Hydrogen in particular. So if people want to push for more phone integration, it'd be better to just leave any Hydrogen-specific details/requests out of it. It may be that things get developed in ways that allow Hydrogens to be better used in conjunction with the Komodo (and DSMC3), but I imagine Hydrogen integration itself isn't even on the list of priorities at RED.

I'm not talking about a phone, I'm talking about how the H1 has parts that can integrate with the infrastructure of a camera like no other phone and that it's something that's now cancelled. I'm talking about stripping away the "phone things" within it, keeping the connector, WIFI, Gyroscope, even an ability to stream from it. There are things within a phone that has tremendous use when filming that could be utilized, especially when the H1 has a high-speed connector on the backside. And who cares about if it's prioritized or not? It's like saying that because it's not prioritized it doesn't hold any value, which makes no sense. They could work on it later, Mikael could take a look, or as I said, give out the source code since it's a dead project and let someone else make something. I just think that it's wasted potential not to look into how the H1 could be a piece of support equipment. It will definitely give it a second life value.

 

[Greg M]

Don't think I want to use a phone as my primary monitor, but it's nice to have it as a backup.

As far as I recall, the plan was to have a wired connection and a phone cradle. Did this change?

Well since H1 is no longer supported and the OS is 2 years old...
I think its time to move on, expecting a company to support a dead product is wishful thinking. RIP H1

 

[Les Hillis]

Okay, I thought you were talking about phones in general. If you're talking about using the Hydrogen in particular, I don't really don't see RED spending time on it. Wouldn't they have to start making them again for that to be worthwhile?

But yeah, if there are unique parts the H1 has that might be integrated into another product, I can see that might be worth checking out, if RED haven't done that already.

 

[Med D]

I don't know if I would say "like no other phone". Doesn't pretty much every phone have a "high speed connector", a gyro and wifi? Yes there is a toughened case but that is about it. It's a dated Android phone at this point -- that's a double negative.

Also I believe the H1 was available through a carrier briefly. Updating any carrier software is a huge exercise. I think Greg has the best use for the H1 -- as a book-end with a Newton on the other end.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Wouldn't they have to start making them again for that to be worthwhile?

Sure, that's the major problem. But the thing is that there are thousands of them out there that could get a second life. All of them will be worthless in a generation or two. So if we had a cable and software for it, we would still have a very high-end monitor that rivals the high-end line of touch monitors in Red's store. The development cost wouldn't be that much if you count in that everyone with a Komodo and a H1 would probably get it and it would be a seriously low-cost monitor on the used market that gets new life with just a new cable and software. Then, of course, the environmental perspective of using this old gear and not just letting thousands of old H1s pile up in some third world country.

I don't know if I would say "like no other phone". Doesn't pretty much every phone have a "high speed connector", a gyro and wifi? Yes there is a toughened case but that is about it. It's a dated Android phone at this point -- that's a double negative.

Also I believe the H1 was available through a carrier briefly. Updating any carrier software is a huge exercise. I think Greg has the best use for the H1 -- as a book-end with a Newton on the other end.

This is why I said that the Android OS should be scrapped and the entire thing rebooted with new software that makes it a pure monitor for Komodo. The H1 has a high-speed connector on the back side that was meant to integrate with the camera module that was canceled at the same time as the phone itself. So it has the capacity to put through a whole other level of bandwidth and function than just a USB-C connector. So if you combine that with all the stuff inside it that's common on other phones, you could essentially make it so it feeds the Gyro data back into the metadata of the R3D file and you have an instant SteadXP quality stabilizer that's more powerful than the kickstarter one. Couple that with a streaming capacity that gets fed from the camera through the Red cable and you have a much higher quality broadcast camera for online broadcasting. Keeping it "a phone" is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about using the hardware tech inside it, stripping out the "phone" software part and remake it into a very powerful monitor with extra capabilities. The H1 is not just a phone, especially when you start looking past its Android part.

 

[Christian Jadot]

If you are a Hydrogen owner there is a discount available for the full production Black models. Early bird cameras, which are more expensive than the Black release cams aren't applicable for the discount. There was only a mention of the development of Hydrogen 2, but that was a far off horizon and nothing was ever hard planned.

There was a Camera Module of some sort that was planned for Komodo, which also would have cost money. The benefit of being a Hydrogen owner is you do get that Komodo discount if you want one.

The question really comes down to if you were interested in the Camera Module and if that ever interested you. Komodo likely was going to be released in it's current form either way based on what Jarred's said in interviews and even shown a much older prototype. Though Komodo is not a "camera module", it's a bit more fully featured than the initial prototype of that module shown was by a fairly large margin. And is in effect compatible with IOS as well as shortly Android devices and not limited to one exact phone.

A completely hot and personal take as RED Hydrogen and RED Digital Cinema weren't exactly the same company or truly related. Though RED Hydrogen didn't survive the onslaught of modern day 3-6 month mobile phone cycles and had some rather large potholes when it comes to the general consumer experience, what's far more interesting to me is the people still using Hydrogen in 2020. I'm still paying attention to that crowd who are still tapping into the H4V and Lightfield tech, 3D, and other things you can use the phone for. And a really hot take, my Ti still gets 3 days per charge. But most mobile phone companies now offer huge batteries around the same year of the H1 launch. A lot of criticism surrounding the project and rightly so, but it is very interesting that there are people still using these devices as phones, content creation, and presentation.

My personal take was if Hydrogen featured 3 cameras with wide, normal, and tele lenses without the focus on H4V and smidge more focus on 2D, things might have played out a bit differently. The following year is when the newer iPhones and other cameras with multi-cams/focal lengths hit and some of that integration is sexy. Not to mention killing the auxiliary lens business to some degree. Now we have fancy mirror and periscope zooms. Lots of interesting small tech these days.

Ha! I still use mine as my primary phone. Every now and then I still take a 4v picture...

But before this I had a flip ... So ... I don't pay that attention to the phone market.

 

[Phil Holland]

Ha! I still use mine as my primary phone. Every now and then I still take a 4v picture...

But before this I had a flip ... So ... I don't pay that attention to the phone market.

Same until this week, which actually happened more as a "project requirement" to upgrade to something else, can't really talk about that now, but 5G related which Hydrogen doesn't support. But yeah, the fact that nothing really slowed down, maintained great battery life, and survived my rather weird travels and impacts; I think there was a lot more good than bad.

Biggest negatives were the fingerprint scanner and perhaps the Android security update missing in action. The H4V stuff being so early and new didn't really bother me. I've been early to all sorts of tech while wrinkles needed ironing out.

Telling you though, if I can put any of these phones into a Titanium shell with a forehead and chin for camera and speakers (I think that would allow for rather large speakers btw), and remove notches forever, I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Headphone jack was/is a plus too but it seems the world is moving on for mobile on that front. A good USB to 3.5mm adapter works I guess if you are in love with your headphones or earbuds that aren't wireless.

The biggest bummer is we don't get to see what Hydrogen 2 was on the path to being, though it was mentioned a few times. So many interesting things could have been omitted and of course built upon. But I would say safely that short of being a real major player in screen tech and manufacturing it would be very hard to compete. Phone camera sensors are another small world thing, but there's a lot that can be done there too. Heh. I got some wild ideas on all this I guess. I imagine somebody will come along and get creative in the face of material refinement as of late.

It's still a very interesting device for those avid 3D folks interested in H4V, that's where one of my other phones ended up and that guys doing crazy stuff which is rad.

The benefit to those into Komodo is your discount on the camera is sort of the actual price you paid for the phone, which I think is a nice plus when it comes down to it.

 

[Christian Jadot]

After everything is said and done (I am so excited about the Komodo, it is pretty much bought once the H1 Discount version hits ... for me anyways) ... However, I am still going to be in search of a 4.5k+ true pocket cinema camera. Something the same size as the original BMPCC that won't draw the attention a rig will. One day maybe ... I was really hoping the Hydrogen + the Camera module would have been it.

PS I got 2 phones, plus a $1,000 (hopfully) off on the Komodo. Not a bad deal all in all,