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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HV20 1920x1080 4.2.2 Uncompressed

Yes, I think everyone is pretty much aware that HDV 1080 is actually 1440x1080. Just like DVCPROHD is 960x720 instead of 1280x720 and 1280x1080 instead of 1920x1080... Those lucky PAL guys get 1440x1080 with DVCPROHD though. HDCAM is also 1440x1080. If you want the full 1920x1080 raster you have to go to HDCAM SR. XDCAM was initially 1440x1080 as well, but has provisions for full 1920 raster. I don't know if Sony's latest products are capable of encoding full 1920x1080 just yet as I haven't paid attention. Most AVCHD / AVC Intra based cameras are also 1440x1080...

So, HDV kinda just fits right in with the rest of the industry. I don't know about you, but it makes me appreciate RED a whole lot more.
 
It just goes to show you what a noob I am.

But I guess this is okay if your final master is 720p.

No one is really saying that 1440x1080 will blow back up to 1920x1080, I assume?
 
It blows up just fine... The majority of all broadcast HD is actually broadcast at 1280x1080. Bet you didn't know that. Comcast, Dish Network and DirecTV all use 1280x1080 as their "1080i" resolution. It looks OK, the lack the resolution is hardly as bad as the macroblocking and other artifacts. OTOH, looking at a true 1920x1080 source like HD-DVD or BluRay shows you just how much detail we're missing out on.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
It blows up just fine... The majority of all broadcast HD is actually broadcast at 1280x1080. Bet you didn't know that. Comcast, Dish Network and DirecTV all use 1280x1080 as their "1080i" resolution. It looks OK, the lack the resolution is hardly as bad as the macroblocking and other artifacts. OTOH, looking at a true 1920x1080 source like HD-DVD or BluRay shows you just how much detail we're missing out on.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Those discs shown in 1080p are kind of spectacular. Interesting. But for me, knowing this, no chance I would finish over 720p shooting on the HV20.

Then again, I think the same way about the RED. I plan to finish at 2K. Having seen a lot of low-light DLSR images, I think 2K will hold up better.

Give me a 6K camera and I will finish at 4K. :)
 
Bruce Allen said:
Or just be normal:
a) shoot compressed most of the time
We're shooting a handheld mockumentary. The fact that the camera is moving along with the other onscreen activity makes me worried about the HDV compression.
b) connect to a computer if you want to do a studio shoot.
Again, handheld mockumentary. One option we've considered is attaching 50+ foot component cables to the cameras, putting an HDMI converter on the end, and then capturing to the computers with the Blackmagic Intensity. With 3 cameras running though and so many technical things to manage, this really should be a last resort.
c) rent a Red if you want higher-quality acquisition
With the lack of auto focus and other ENG camera conventions, we don't see RED as being a viable option for something like this. More importantly, we don't have the budget. :glare:

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

All of your ideas are viable options, but those are a last resort. Anyone have any simple solution ideas?


Why does a deck cost so much anyways? It's basically a video camera with the CCDs and lens ripped out, so why shouldn't it cost less than a whole camera?
 
Justin Anderson said:
All of your ideas are viable options, but those are a last resort. Anyone have any simple solution ideas?
Click to expand...

Shoot on an HVX200 or the new 500 or get a good deal on a Varicam or HDCAM camera. Those have a higher data rate.

Since this is a mockumentary, you could get away with 60i - you don't need a George Lucas camera - maybe someone you know bought a HDW-700 and isn't using it much?

Or else, you could just try and find more funds?

Or, of course, find that HDV compression isn't that bad, really. With a mockumentary, it doesn't have to look perfect anyway. I have happily gone to see documentaries at the Arclight that were shot on SD cameras. Part of it is the perverse desire of seeing how they print it all to film ;) But mostly it's because the content is compelling. People will only notice the macroblocks if you bore them to tears.

Justin Anderson said:
Why does a deck cost so much anyways? It's basically a video camera with the CCDs and lens ripped out, so why shouldn't it cost less than a whole camera?
Click to expand...

Mostly it's a rip-off. You are helping Sony / etc pay back all of the vast sums of money they've poured into employing engineers to develop HD into a viable format for DECADES. Without the work they did, the Red would never have existed. So think of it as a development tithe to all of those folk who helped drag Americans out of NTSC-hell.

But the deck does have a better mechanism.

Also, for D-5 and HDCAM SR, there is no camera.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Or, of course, find that HDV compression isn't that bad, really. With a mockumentary, it doesn't have to look perfect anyway. I have happily gone to see documentaries at the Arclight that were shot on SD cameras. Part of it is the perverse desire of seeing how they print it all to film ;) But mostly it's because the content is compelling. People will only notice the macroblocks if you bore them to tears.
Click to expand...

Do you have any high-movement sample footage I can look at? The H264 demo footage off Canon's website had a data rate of 550kbps, far too low for me to make an accurate judgment on the video quality. (plus, it was also interlaced footage, which didn't help the compression)

I would really love to shoot on cameras without being tethered to some complex system, I just hope HDV's compression holds up.
 
Bruce Allen said:
Mostly it's a rip-off. You are helping Sony / etc pay back all of the vast sums of money they've poured into employing engineers to develop HD into a viable format for DECADES. Without the work they did, the Red would never have existed. So think of it as a development tithe to all of those folk who helped drag Americans out of NTSC-hell.
Click to expand...

REDdeck anyone? :D
 
Justin Anderson said:
Do you have any high-movement sample footage I can look at? The H264 demo footage off Canon's website had a data rate of 550kbps, far too low for me to make an accurate judgment on the video quality. (plus, it was also interlaced footage, which didn't help the compression)

I would really love to shoot on cameras without being tethered to some complex system, I just hope HDV's compression holds up.
Click to expand...

Okay, sample coming. I gotta stop posting! I am officially dropping out of the RedUser forums RIGHT NOW to work on my 10" HD monitor and HV20 update ;)

See you guys in a few days...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Cool.

I wish I knew someone who owned the A1 so I could test it. I'd basically try to destroy the image as much as I could to see how far I could push the cam in the future.
 
Couple of questions I can answer. I have an HV20 and the dell monitor.

I can tell you from experience that you cannot convert the HDMI out of the HV20 to DVI and get an HD signal. You will get an SD signal to the monitor, but not HD. I think it's something to do with HDCP. Anyway the component from the camera works great and looks awesome, no joy on the HDMI to DVI, unless Canon comes out with some firmware or something, which I highly doubt.

Secondly, I have the Intensity card and the images it capture through the HDMI are amazing. I really couldn't believe the quality I was getting, even with the free Blackmagic Mjpeg codec supplied. You can buy Cineform and go to town without noticing any change in quality from uncompressed. I've even transcoded to DNxHD 220 and edited in Avid which works like a champ. (I assume this will be the workflow for most Avid users with the Red anyway)

Once again you cannot convert the HDMI out of the Intensity card to DVI and view it on the Dell. I tried and the dell won't even see a signal. I emailed Blackmagic and their response was that it won't do it because of a colorspace conversion that would have to take place that the intensity nor the cable is doing. If you have a Dell and want to use it as a monitor for your Intensity or your HV20 then make sure you get the Intensity Pro with the component.

That being said the HDMI out to a true 1080 monitor with HDMI in looks great.


Here's how I'm recording with the HV20 and Intensity. I'll build you one if you like.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=97526

Good Luck

Chris
 
I probably shouldn't be one to mention this, but isn't being tethered to something that big a bit annoying? I use an Andromeda, but I'm hooked up to a very small mac mini, and very soon it will be a shoulder mount camera (using anton bauer bricks) about the size of a regular broadcast shoulder mount, maybe a little bit smaller actually. Can you not capture to a mac mini or mac book pro?
 
angeleye said:
Does the mac mini or Macbook pro have a PCIe slot?

I don't know, but I don't think so.

Chris
Click to expand...

Good point, I don't know. Well at any rate, if your making films, then you can get away with that setup, I mean really, when is a GOOD film ever made ENG run and gun news style.... When you think about all the stuff that is setup for a film shoot, ie. lights, grip gear, cable runs, generators, actors trailers.... shooting tethered suddenly doesn't seem like that big a deal anymore!
 
You are correct there. I mean on location for a short film shoot, how many cables come off the camera or back to the camera especially if you are using onboard sound? I've read you can use up to 150ft HDMI cable, so you can get pretty far away and still have plenty of slack, not to mention one cable does audio and video. You can record to tape and the Intensity at the same time and get 2 copies. One is going to look a lot better than the other, but at least it's a backup.

BTW I can do HDSDI with this setup, just swap out the card for a Xena and add a few drives to get the full data rate.

Chris
 
Thanks for the info Chris I wass looking at your setup over at DVInfo while doing research for the HV20 rig I am planning on. I would love to see some nice samples.

Also glad to hear you can use 150ft cable. For most of the things I am planning that would work fine as long as I can keep the computer cool enough.
 
Why does a deck cost so much anyways? It's basically a video camera with the CCDs and lens ripped out, so why shouldn't it cost less than a whole camera?
Click to expand...
1- People will pay that much for a deck.
2- A deck will do things that a camera will not do.

-You can make insert edits for creating broadcast masters.
-The deck can record 4 or more channels of audio. In the deck, you can adjust levels and mixing and audio routing and the deck will accept digital audio in, with sync via genlock. For broadcast masters, you usually want full mix on channels 1&2 with the mix&effects mix on 3&4. (M&E mix = the mix without the dialogue.)
-A good quality real-time SD downconversion with character (e.g. for TC burn-in), edge crop / anamorphic / letterbox. Useful for dubs.
-Deck control so you can capture with (and via) timecode.
 
pat@hpnc.com said:
Was looking at HDMI cables and it looks like you need a booster to get to 150ft. http://hiddenwires.co.uk/resourcesnews2005/news20050929-03.html
Click to expand...

In my experience setting up commercial AV display systems, HDMI doesn't like much more than 50ft, especially if you're pushing 1080i60 or better. I've had long HDMI cables go bad because the small contacts literally give out with that much load on them if you don't use extra high quality cables and a good booster or distribution amp with regulated power output.

If you're looking to take HDMI over about 50ft or so, you should look into fiber optic solutions. Or HDMI balun sets that work off of shielded CAT5e / CAT6. Then you're not limited on distance all that much ~ 300 to 500ft in most cases. The fiber ones are kinda expensive, but very simple. They converters are built right into the cable ends on the good ones so it's just like pluggin in any other HDMI cable. It's just a couple hundred feet long and has status LEDs on each end.

Gefen and DVIGEAR both have such solutions. There's a couple other out there too. For short standard cable runs, I highly recommend cables from www.monoprice.com I'm not affiliated with them in any way, but they have some really nice cables for very cheap. Their net-jacket gold plated DVI and HDMI cables are every bit as nice as the ones from Monster Cable or AudioQuest and 1/10th the price.
 
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