HV20 1920x1080 4.2.2 Uncompressed

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I'm a bit curious about this whole HDMI thing. I'm reading 4:2:2 uncompressed 1080, but is this after the DSP and all those crappy internal settings for pedestal and such have already affected the footage? I currently shoot with an Andromeda DVX100 (4:4:4 10 bit Raw, straight off the sensors) and internal "look" settings (pedestal, color matrix, etc...) never affect the Andromeda output. Its a killer system by the way, it can have the dynamic range of a D200 depending on how you shoot (ie, LUT settings, exposure technique, post processing which usually costs you about 1 stop or so depending on your desired black levels). Its also virtually noise free if you want it to be :sorcerer:

Also, how big are the HV20 sensors? I can't imagine they are very large, which means the sensors photosites must be painfully tiny, which should create a large dose of noise and limited dynamic range. Just curious...

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm a bit curious about this whole HDMI thing. I'm reading 4:2:2 uncompressed 1080, but is this after the DSP and all those crappy internal settings for pedestal and such have already affected the footage?

HDMI-out is meant to go to the HD monitor, so yes, it should basically be the processed image (white balance, gain, gamma, etc.) short of being recorded and compressed by the codec of the recorder. Unless someone knows differently; this seems logical to me.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

HDMI-out is meant to go to the HD monitor, so yes, it should basically be the processed image (white balance, gain, gamma, etc.) short of being recorded and compressed by the codec of the recorder. Unless someone knows differently; this seems logical to me.

Thats what I was thinking. Someone once told me they could get raw uncompressed footage out of an HVX200 using the component output and recording to a PC/Mac. I was a bit skeptical, so I asked if they could see the affects of any internal pedestal settings etc. showing up thru that output and they said they could, and I was like, "not truly raw".... not to mention the fact that they didn't know what the sampling for the footage was at that particular stage of the signal flow. Lots of dirty details in digital cinematography, thats for sure.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Kind of off subject, but can I get an HDMI to DVI converter so I can monitor the HV20 on my Dell 24" LCD?

What are my options for hooking up that camera to this monitor?

Here are the listed interfaces:

Interfaces

1 x DVI-D - 24 pin digital DVI
1 x VGA - 15 pin HD D-Sub (HD-15)
1 x component video input - RCA x 3
1 x composite video input - RCA
1 x S-video input - 4 pin mini-DIN

 

[David Mullen ASC]

"RAW" really applies more the single-sensor photography; I can't think of any 3-CCD cameras that are designed to allow a RAW signal off of the three chips to be recorded -- even the Viper converts them into 10-bit Log. The Andromeda/Hydra Reel-Stream hack seems to be the only example I can think of RAW linear recording from a 3-chip camera.

 

[Bruce Allen]

The HV20's sensor size is 1/2.7. Not bad for a consumer camera.

Yes, the HDMI and HD component outputs are after all of the sharpening, white balance, etc has been done. Not RAW.

Kind of off subject, but can I get an HDMI to DVI converter so I can monitor the HV20 on my Dell 24" LCD?

Yes you can get a HDMI to DVI converter. But the HV20 is finicky - people are having lots of problems trying to hook it up to the Dells. You'll have to use my LCD monitor, bwahaha...

I guess you could use component input on the Dells actually. Their chip isn't too sharp with HD component for some reason though.

We're both in LA - if you ever want to borrow my HV20 to test it, let me know. Sounds like the only way you're going to satisfy your curiosity is to get your hands on one for a few days.

But let me finish my latitude report first!

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[number6]

Kind of off subject, but can I get an HDMI to DVI converter so I can monitor the HV20 on my Dell 24" LCD?

What are my options for hooking up that camera to this monitor?

Here are the listed interfaces:

Interfaces

1 x DVI-D - 24 pin digital DVI
1 x VGA - 15 pin HD D-Sub (HD-15)
1 x component video input - RCA x 3
1 x composite video input - RCA
1 x S-video input - 4 pin mini-DIN

Tom, found a Phillips HDMI to DVI cable at Wal-Mart (around 30 bucks, if memory serves.) Was hoping to get from an Everio GZ HD7U to a Phillips 23" DVI-D tv. Haven't hooked it up yet, but I think it will work, although without audio included on or through the connection. Seems like I read somewhere that the DVI would still work with a DVI-D monitor/tv, but can't be certain.

edit: didn't see Bruce's post just ahead of mine, so... never mind.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Guys, HDMI is based on DVI video spec. A simple HDMI to DVI cable or adapter does the trick and don't pay too much. Literally, anything over $10 for a 3' cable after shipping / tax is too much.

However, that doesn't guaranty success. HDTV spec or specifically the EIA/TIA signal coming from the camera's HDMI port is not supported by all DVI interfaces and displays. So the HV20 isn't going to work with most computer monitors out there, just because of a lack of support for HDTV standard signaling. A lot of newer monitors are supporting these display modes though, so something to keep in mind. Where most people use DVI to HDMI cables/adapters is attaching their computer to a HDTV. Both OSX and Windows driver sets for ATI and nVidia will put out HDTV signal types to drive such displays.

 

[number6]

Guys, HDMI is based on DVI video spec. A simple HDMI to DVI cable or adapter does the trick and don't pay too much. Literally, anything over $10 for a 3' cable after shipping / tax is too much.

However, that doesn't guaranty success. HDTV spec or specifically the EIA/TIA signal coming from the camera's HDMI port is not supported by all DVI interfaces and displays. So the HV20 isn't going to work with most computer monitors out there, just because of a lack of support for HDTV standard signaling. A lot of newer monitors are supporting these display modes though, so something to keep in mind. Where most people use DVI to HDMI cables/adapters is attaching their computer to a HDTV. Both OSX and Windows driver sets for ATI and nVidia will put out HDTV signal types to drive such displays.

Jeff, seems like I remember some threads about using a HDMI (or DVI?) monitor in lieu of a viewfinder on the RED. Any problems as you've described above expected or being addressed?

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Found a chart that might help.

Source...http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bc3db62

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

"RAW" really applies more the single-sensor photography; I can't think of any 3-CCD cameras that are designed to allow a RAW signal off of the three chips to be recorded -- even the Viper converts them into 10-bit Log. The Andromeda/Hydra Reel-Stream hack seems to be the only example I can think of RAW linear recording from a 3-chip camera.

Ah, yes, I should be a little more careful in using the term "Raw"... I know what you mean about DSLRS. The Andromeda system isn't quite like raw DSLR photography, though the footage output is pretty darn close in terms of performance. Raw in DSLR terms is basically everything, even sharpening information, not to mention a whole slew of other options. The Andromeda does actually give control over sharpening, but does not provide the real time preview of a DSLR Raw conversion program, at least not yet. Thats what makes the camera so cool, its pretty much software driven, the hardware is there to give access to the data, but all the control seems to be driven by the capture program, which keeps on being improved :biggrin:

As for Raw linear recording, well, its close, all the pre-made LUTs I've been using from reel stream record the information from 12 bit linear to 10 bit log (I believe the inserted hardware does this). You can also shoot 12 bit linear to 8 bit log. However, I've heard you can render the files out using an inverse curve, so I suppose you can get 10 bit linear, never tried that, so far I just render using the "None" setting, which is basically a straight line from what I understand, and so far I've had fantastic results shooting that way, but now that I think about, I'm gonna poke around those inverse curve options.....I'm always exploring :biggrin:

 

[Tom Lowe]

Ah, so there's no telling if the HV20 with an HDMI-to-DVI adapter will work, unless someone tries it and reports back? Bruce are you saying that you've heard it's not working with something like the 24" Dell Ultrasharp, or only sometimes working? Define "finicky."

 

[Tom Lowe]

Jeez, stupid me, I've never dealt with HDV and didn't realize the resolution was going to get crunched to 1440x1080. I guess the best idea in that case is just to plan to finish at 720p and it should be a pretty clean image, I would imagine.

I have Aspect HD on my machine, so I'm set for 1440x1080 intermediates already, I guess.

 

[number6]

Found a chart that might help.

Source...http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bc3db62

Thanks Patrick, but I'm thinking this chart may not apply to RED. I'm pretty peach-brained (fuzzy) on this but my understanding was that the HDMI could go straight to the monitor and the recording would remain unchanged, unlike the chart you show which suggests that what one records does a pass-through of the monitor, or loses data when it also goes to recording method. I'm assuming the RED will be unaffected by the fact that some data goes to the monitor, but I'm just speculating.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't think anyone thought we were talking about the RED, but the HV20, and the possibility of recording the HDMI-out that would normally go to an HD monitor, to a data recorder of some sort, as a way of skipping the final HDV codec and getting better 4:2:2 HD with less compression.

None of this is necessary with the RED camera.

 

[number6]

None of this is necessary with the RED camera.

Kinda' thought this might be the case... still wondering if RED HDMI out will co-operate with most HDMI-DVI monitors on the market or if as suggested, like the HV20, may have issues with various brands. May be something that is just not knowable at present. (Forgive my penchant for quoting Don Rumsfeld so often)

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Yes sorry only talking about the HV20. The Red is special

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Kinda' thought this might be the case... still wondering if RED HDMI out will co-operate with most HDMI-DVI monitors on the market or if as suggested, like the HV20, may have issues with various brands. May be something that is just not knowable at present. (Forgive my penchant for quoting Don Rumsfeld so often)

I don't think anyone knows the answer to that just yet. RED has an HDMI port, so any monitor with proper HDMI input will (should) work. Since it's HDMI and it's sending out 720p, I would guess it's using a standard EIA/TIA568B signal spec since that's what most HDMI HDTV displays are going to expect. So as long as your monitor (DVI or HDMI) supports that signal format you'll be fine. It seriously should be an issue of firmware and/or a simple configuration change on the camera to adjust output timings to conform to 720p as it applies in the DVI-D standards. I'm confident this will be a non-issue with RED. Or at least it will be by the time all the features are enabled.

 

[number6]

Thanks Jeff, that was pretty much what I was hoping to hear.

 

[Tom Lowe]

So were all of you aware that the recorded tape was only 1440x1080?

That kinda makes the whole True HD claim kinda bogus, IMO.