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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Huge conversion times, right?

Play nice, I think I see a Reduser Mod coming down the hall.:)
 
laguun said:
Adobe and Apple.
not fast. instant.

using avid will add days and weeks of transcoding.
drop avid, go adobe or apple will, sadly, become the mantra if avid wont support redcode native.

superslow is avid. apple (right now) and adobe (around the corner) are fast.
i am sad to have to say this.
Click to expand...

Laguun,

I appreciate what you are saying - Avid needs to have Redcode native support. That much is clear and everybody agrees.

But Apple is not instant. Go to www.red.com/support and read the notice at the top of the page. Compressor with B16 is essentially broken, and Log and Transfer render times are about 9-to-1.

Anybody doing Apple RED editorial work right now is transcoding. Anybody doing Avid RED editorial work right now is transcoding.

The *real* workflows right now between Avid and Apple are much closer in efficiency than what you seem to believe.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
When Avid has native RED support it will (according to my assumptions and speculation) still be a transcoded workflow. REDCODE is not an efficient editing codec - it is data-heavy and processor intensive. Avid's traditional approach has been to shift this work to the 'ingest' phase. That means when you import a file Avid takes that file and transcodes or wraps it into native Avid media. There is a delay, compared to Premiere or FCP for example, but once that's done it never needs to happen again, Avid can handle that media with realtime efficiency.

At the moment Avid has no ability to do this itself, so our options are to use a tool like Compressor or MPEG Streamclip to create Avid-compatible media, then import that media (and link against Metadata as a separate step). It's not simple, but it works.

Integration would mean that instead the R3D files could be directly 'Batch Imported' from the filesystem, Metadata would be created and transcoding managed automatically. It would be a click-click-wait process (something that can be started and carry on unattended overnight).

I far prefer this workflow. I can manage my storage and performance much better with native codec support. With a direct integration to RAW R3D media I would need to keep all the full-rate R3D media online (at ~300Mb/s that's adds up) and renders or low-quality debayer playback would be required to attain editing performance. Multi-stream playback (even with low quality debayer, it still needs to read the full file I believe) would be very limited.

An advanced 'conform' tool for Media Composer might be a good option - where relevant sections of media could be 'relinked' to R3D media with new processing options.
 
That's funny lucas.
Just finnished the edit of a B16 short in FCP yesterday. Cannot say I recognize that statement.

@ the same time I've been helping people through with AVID. Nope... That's not instant...
 
Once again people fail to answer the simple question I asked...
Instead of being such FCP fanboys, the reality some must learn is that some editors have a greater knowledge with some editing softwares. I'm schooled in Avid and personally I think FCP is pure crap, that's just my personal opinion about working WITH the program (not what program supports what files and whatever).

Now for the third time I will ask this and hope I do not need to create an entirely new thread for it. (I still think it's quite odd that in the AVID part of the worflow forum people can't stop spewing posts about FCP, stop it, get a reality check, not all uses FCP)

Because I do not have time to ask a third time I will quote myself until I get an answer to the actual question:

Glazarus said:
Back to the subject of conversion speed.
I'm going to edit the movie on set during the production, that is, I'm going to actually edit the movie with timecode offlines at the same time as they are shooting it.

So, I'm in the process of discussing what type of workflow that we will use for this process.

What is the FASTEST way to get SD or 720p files from the r3d files that I can edit in AMC and still have the timecode and audio present for online later on?

All workflows so far is superslow and I'm talking about PC-only workflow. Is there something equal of redrushes that could be used?
Click to expand...
 
galzarus - i did read the other day something about getting hd/sd output when you playback through the RED. i am trying to find the link....:umm:

if all of the info is embeded in the output your could injest on play back.
if anyone knows of the lik or the answer please jump in.
 
The RED SDK has only just been released - there is some promise that it can be used to create better transcoding/ingest options.

The advantage that Macs have here is that they support the QT Component, which gives QT-aware applications access to the R3D file.

Using that component it is possible to direct-import the QT Reference files into Avid. The transcode time (or our MacPro) is about 1.5-2x (so 90-120 minutes for 60 minutes of footage).

This is something that presently isn't possible in Windows.
 
Glazarus said:
Once again people fail to answer the simple question I asked... Instead of being such FCP fanboys, ...
Now for the third time I will ask this ...
Because I do not have time to ask a third time I will quote myself until I get an answer to the actual question:
Click to expand...

Allow me to quote myself as well:

The post inquired about SD conversion. That takes not much more than real time, even on a laptop, using Redcine. Not "days and weeks." One hour for an hour's worth of material. That may or may not work for what's being asked, but it is all that's required.
Click to expand...

If you're asking about something that's faster than that, or direct import to Avid, I can't give you an answer - and neither can anyone else - because at the moment there isn't one, short of direct capture. And you wouldn't get time code with direct capture at this point in time, either.
 
gunleik said:
That's funny lucas.
Just finnished the edit of a B16 short in FCP yesterday. Cannot say I recognize that statement.

@ the same time I've been helping people through with AVID. Nope... That's not instant...
Click to expand...

Hi Gunleik,

That's actually interesting news... Let me ask a few questions:

1) Did you use Compressor at all?
2) Did you have any clips longer than a few minutes?
3) Did you do any realtime outputs via Kona?
4) Did you have sync audio?
5) What resolution QT Ref movies were you using?

Lucas
 
Good questions :)
1. For that project: Nope. Offline with camproxies in FCP. Pretty instant...
2. Yes.
3. No. Offline is really offline here. Will Online in Scratch, though :)
4) Hm... I have audio on some of the clips, but it is a audio-for-post project...
5) Usually use the M proxies (but the H work as well). Offline is for cuts...

Anyway. Pretty instant. Now... That new B16 Scratch node would have been extremely practical to have here tomorrow...

But OTH, this made for a totally AVIDless post. Not Good.

Have to say though, that when I compare this workflow with the AVID things I've seen so far, this is a good way of spending the time.

All this will of course change when AVID (and adobe) support r3d natively, while apple doesn't because it's not .mov's... :)

Cheers.

G
 
avid offline for red finish

avid offline for red finish

feel free to call me i am currently impementing an avid workflow for a feature, there are a couple tweaks still need to be worked out by red and avid, but currently would provide a valid conform from what we can see, offline is progressing with dnx36 created from the r3d. the finish is up in the air about what system but i can give you my workflow and observations.

dave


Glazarus said:
Once again people fail to answer the simple question I asked...
Instead of being such FCP fanboys, the reality some must learn is that some editors have a greater knowledge with some editing softwares. I'm schooled in Avid and personally I think FCP is pure crap, that's just my personal opinion about working WITH the program (not what program supports what files and whatever).

Now for the third time I will ask this and hope I do not need to create an entirely new thread for it. (I still think it's quite odd that in the AVID part of the worflow forum people can't stop spewing posts about FCP, stop it, get a reality check, not all uses FCP)

Because I do not have time to ask a third time I will quote myself until I get an answer to the actual question:
Click to expand...
 
Here's my secret AVID workflow that to my knowledge nobody else has tried or mentioned:

- Install Avid QT Codecs on a Mac
- Drop QT reference movies into JES Deinterlacer* to batch scale, crop, pad and transcode, simple color correction, all in one step (use standards conversion and select progressive source). Pick the QT with the nearest res to your output res. This step is between 1 and 3 times realtime on an 8-core Mac, depending on the source res you choose.
- If you pick the right Avid codec the files will import much faster than real time on the AVID side.
- Create ALE with Metacheater.

This part of the process is much faster than 10 to 1, probably closer to 5 to 1 (I haven't actually timed it).

Jeremy

*JES Deinterlacer is very very handy, but a bit unstable too. However, once you find settings that work, it stays pretty stable. One preference that helps is to set the max number of simultaneous conversions to 1.
 
i am getting about 2.5:1 with streamclip going to dnx36 from the H wrappers. so the input into avid is fast after the encode, i do not know the comparable prorez convert time.

the only problems i've had are streamclip crashing on bad source r3d's ( so far 3 in this feature) i have to work around those starting tomorrow

dave
 
also, ive found that red is writing their audio channels into the wrappers as "MONO" which will effectively mix the audio channels together from the wrapper within QT, is not issue with FCP but with any other qt app and avid they will mix the channels together,

the workaround is to create a automator to set the channels discreetly in the wrappers and resave before processing the wrapper to avid media

dave
 
Out process, on a number of music videos has been:

1. Use script to generate new QT Reference files at desired resolution all in one directory.
2. Create ALE with Metacheater
3. Import ALE into Media Composer
4. Batch Import QT Reference files into Avid against clip metadata.
5. Edit...
6. Export EDL
7. Process EDL

This is all done on a Mac Pro (although once we have the media the Edit can be done on any Avid suite).

For step 7 I have a process I've devised that works for me... I crate a CSV file with metadata details for all R3D files, then I use that data, combined with what's in EDL, to create a script that runs REDline to extract DPX files for all events in the EDL.

The CSV is necessary to get a correlation between the timecode from the EDL and the start and end frame counts for REDline. One option I considered but haven't tested (I can't remember why) was to apply Aux TC to all clips that starts at 00:00:00:00 for every clip. Then, using the 'RED16' EDL template that's been floating around here, you can use the clip name (contained in REEL from Metacheater) and the Aux TC to figure out the frame numbers.

I have a partly written web-application to do the EDL/CSV stuff, but I sort of abandoned it when it seemed likely that a more stable solution wasn't all that far off.
 
mmost said:
Allow me to quote myself as well:



If you're asking about something that's faster than that, or direct import to Avid, I can't give you an answer - and neither can anyone else - because at the moment there isn't one, short of direct capture. And you wouldn't get time code with direct capture at this point in time, either.
Click to expand...


Do the files have audio? Do the files have the exact timecode to work as offline (that will later on be onlined)?
 
Glazarus said:
Do the files have audio? Do the files have the exact timecode to work as offline (that will later on be onlined)?
Click to expand...

Timecode, yes. Audio, no. But since Avid has AutoSync (unlike a certain Apple editing program), you can make WAV files using the original camera generated QT proxies, bring these into a bin with the picture files, select everything, and use AutoSync by time code to put them together (since they'll have matching time codes).
 
Sycophant said:
For step 7 I have a process I've devised that works for me... I crate a CSV file with metadata details for all R3D files, then I use that data, combined with what's in EDL, to create a script that runs REDline to extract DPX files for all events in the EDL.

The CSV is necessary to get a correlation between the timecode from the EDL and the start and end frame counts for REDline. One option I considered but haven't tested (I can't remember why) was to apply Aux TC to all clips that starts at 00:00:00:00 for every clip. Then, using the 'RED16' EDL template that's been floating around here, you can use the clip name (contained in REEL from Metacheater) and the Aux TC to figure out the frame numbers.

I have a partly written web-application to do the EDL/CSV stuff, but I sort of abandoned it when it seemed likely that a more stable solution wasn't all that far off.
Click to expand...
Hi Dylan,
what if you used the -S and -E options (startTC and endTC) in redline instead of -s and -e (start frame and end frame) ?
would you still need the csv then ?

Redline Frame Settings:
-s or --start <int> : start frame
-e or --end <int> : end frame
-S or --startTC <timecode> : start TC as "00:01:00:00"
-E or --endTC <timecode> : end TC "00:01:00:00"
--useEC : use EdgeCode instead of TimeOfDay/EXT TC
-V or --renum <int> : new start frame number or -1 for timecode as frame count from 00:00:00:00
i.e. 00:00:02:00 = frame 48 @ 24fps
Click to expand...
I've started doing some tests going out from avid into redline :
- all the usal steps (including metacheater and ALE import into avid + batch import)
- edit
- do a decompose of your sequence in a new bin
- export an ALE of this bin (should contain information for each of the shots you've used in your edit)
- use a script, or in my case excel (I'm not good at scripting) to create a redline batch file with the output you want, to create for example dpx sequences from your selected shots
- use EDL to conform in whatever app you want, and relink to the created files.

I just need to understand how to run that batch redline script in the terminal, so far it renders some shots but seems to randomly skip some. I'm certainly doing something wrong, any help here ?:umm:
How should I do that, I feel pretty stupid... If I have a text file containing all the redline scripts for each shot, what should I do ? Copy / Paste into the terminal window doesn't seem to work well if there are more than one shots to render. Is there another way to run that script ?
I'm not very familiar with how the terminal works.

Thanks,
Nils.
 
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