HP 820 Tower - RED EDITION

[Subhadip Sen]

You should have also looked at the color gamut of the display. It only covers 66% of AdobeRGB. Not good at all.

That is 95% sRGB, very good for a consumer display.

Interesting to notice that the Zenbook Prime display has better contrast ratio, colour accuracy and at 190 dpi it's close on pixel density, all for $999. Of course, the new Macbook Pro's display is larger so the overall impact is much greater.

There are better displays, sure, but nothing can touch it for resolution today and nothing will for another 3 months.

According to Intel, all premium notebooks above 15 inches will be 3840x2160 by 2013. So the 2880 LG display in MBPR or the 2560/2732 displays we saw at CES/Computex coming for Windows 8 launch are starting to feel very much like a time-to-market stop-gap. What 1080p was for SD to 4K, 2880/2560 is for 1080p to 4K. 2013 will also bring about superior panel tech with IGZO, Super PLS and AH-IPS. I know this is all way off-topic, I do apologize, but this is exciting stuff. Here's what Intel thinks of the future for PC displays:

They are underestimating some areas, smartphones have been 1280x720 since 2011, and LG and Samsung both have 5-5.5 inch 1920x1080 displays. Hopefully one of those make it in for Galaxy Note II. Also, notebooks are doing slightly better in 2012 at 2880.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To any of you guys following my Z820 configuration notes or tips, here's a big one... DON'T USE THE OCZ VERTEX 4 SSD.

I had one installed and it was working pretty good, write times were steady at 450MB/s and faster according to the AJA and BMD tests. Read times were slower and it was a known issue with the v1.3 firmware. I updated to the latest 1.4.13 firmware and after this update the SSD is incompatible with something in HP's BIOS. It just does not work at all. The SSD is fine, I've tested it in two other systems since I did the firmware update and thought I had bricked it, but it's fine. So I threw it in a MacBook Pro and just installed OSX on it. It screams and power on to login screen is about 10 seconds, maybe 9.


Anyway, gotta get the Z820 back up and running, but I can hold out a day or two so I can try a Samsung 830 512GB SSD in it instead as I really want my primary OS/apps on an SSD.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jeff did you put the drive back in the HP after you got it working on the other systems? I had a similar thing happen with me a few weeks ago with a Vertex.. the drive just completely vanished... like it never existed. This was a boot drive and I thought I was SOL, but i talked to OCZ and they said wait overnight and it will come back.. It was the strangest thing I ever heard but sure enough, i waited overnight and it came alive. almost like there is a temperature reset fuse in the drive. Of course.. most people would just take the drive out and toss it or put it in something else like you did and just assume the system was at fault.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, tried putting it back and it didn't work. The drive never vanished, it was there in the BIOS and was recognized, but it was running so slow. At one point last night I thought I had it working after booting from the HP restore disc. Told it to just format the drive and restore to factory defaults to see if I could get it up and running... And it seemed to be working but was literally taking hours. Didn't realize it at first since I started that process and left for dinner. Came back and inserted disc2 and left again. Came back this morning and it still wasn't done!

I've put out some contact attempts to OCZ. I'll see what they say, but I've already ordered a Samsung 830 just in case.

Have the Samsung 830 in my similar dual E5 system with SuperMicro motherboard. It kicks ass.

 

[paul engstrom]

Its true what you say that a PC works best with someone that is good with computers. This was what I needed to be when I started editing 14 years ago. I needed to know about "control panel", About "illegal operations" about sometimes having to enter the DOS prompt, about compatibilities and about components from different companies. Some people find this "fun", building your own system and trying to make it work reliably and without hicups. However, with all the fight i had with different components, different drivers, instability, some not so good components failing, etc, I took notice that I was wasting more time in being an engineer than being a creative, or on concentrating on my ideas, my storytelling, what i could achieve with the computer. This is not marketing, but the truth.

--

Seems relevant right about now

 

[Eric Z]

Thanks to people like Jeff who constantly push the envelope and practically live on the bleeding edge of technology, we get to see some amazing things happen.
Sure, there are challenges along the way, but we are men!! we're not afraid of a few little obstacles...
Eventually, the reward of getting super speeds and fluent work-flow is worth all the headache.

Remember folks - In computers (and cameras), speed is the name of the game.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Sure, there are challenges along the way, but we are men!! we're not afraid of a few little obstacles...
Eventually, the reward of getting super speeds and fluent work-flow is worth all the headache.

Or let HP deal with it. The choice to tinker is there, but it is only a choice. You can buy the HP Z820 RED Edition as it is, switch it on, and you are ready to get to work. Sure, you may eke out a bit of performance, but I am not sure if it is always worth the headache for everyone. Many will give up that extra just to have a 100% reliable platform to work with, which is what the HP Z820 is out of box.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Or let HP deal with it. The choice to tinker is there, but it is only a choice. You can buy the HP Z820 RED Edition as it is, switch it on, and you are ready to get to work. Sure, you may eke out a bit of performance, but I am not sure if it is always worth the headache for everyone. Many will give up that extra just to have a 100% reliable platform to work with, which is what the HP Z820 is out of box.

Precisely. And there's a lot to be said for just buying a well-configured system that you can just pull out of the box and use.

That said, it doesn't take much to get started down the path of tinkering and little configuration hiccups. My Z820 is a perfect example. The only things I've added to the system other than common PCIe cards or already supported hard drives have been the OCZ SSD and I've swapped the Quadro 6000 for the GTX 690. The GPU swap worked better than I had imagined, the 690 is performing like a champ. Sure, the Quadro has very smooth performance, but the 690 is faster and it's 100% stable in this system, plus I get dual GPUs in one double-width slot. To get the same amount of GPU power with the Quadro 6000, I need a second, or a Tesla card... I've swapped back and forth a few times in testing, and it looks like the 690 is going to stay. Honestly that was a bit surprising for me. And another point of honesty, if I weren't as interested in tinkering with this or if I were paying an employee to set up the system, or in most real-world scenarios, this wouldn't happen. I would have ordered the system with the Quadro 6000 and Tesla card right from HP and have been done with it.

And another surprise has been the SSD... You would think that SSD swap would be straight forward, after all it should be no different than installing a hard drive, right? But it's not. There is some sort of major compatibility issue here. I've lost nearly a whole work day screwing with it and as of right now, I don't have the system up and running. My Z820 has already become my primary system for a few things, which are now out of commission until I admit defeat and restore my backup to a common HDD -- something I may just have to do. Or I wait for that Samsung 830 to get here tomorrow afternoon, maybe wednesday.

Hoping to hear what OCZ has to say. However, I think that's pretty much a lost cause unless they're already aware of this issue and have a beta firmware I can install to test out. The issue may also be with HP and their own BIOS, which could stand a few fixes itself. It hasn't been touched since the 1.02 release in the first couple days of April, about a month before the systems actually shipped. I've left a voicemail and an email in attempt to contact someone there. The regular tech support was unhelpful other than hopefully directing me to the right email address to use. HP isn't that far from me, but it's not like I can just walk through the front door with the system and say, "hey let's sort this out", however tempting that may be. I have one friend who works there, but he's in HR or accounting or something like that.

I don't know if the Samsung 830 will work in the Z820 either, but I would like to think it will. The OCZ units are experiencing some BIOS/EFI incompatibilities as there are some scattered reports. The Samsung falls just shy of the OCZ in performance, but I already have one running another workstation and it's great. And it has far more consistently positive reviews out there.

 

[Francis Nguyen]

The GTX 690 sounds really awesome, but I was under the impression that the GTX 680 4GB had the edge. I'm a bit torn: should I go with the GTX 690 or GTX 680 4GB?

 

[Matthias Stöckl]

I'm really looking forward to seeing that beast in action together with Ted and Matt here in Munich at Digitale Cinematographie 2012 on July 4th and 5th!

 

[Brad Allen]

I don't know if the Samsung 830 will work in the Z820 either, but I would like to think it will. The OCZ units are experiencing some BIOS/EFI incompatibilities as there are some scattered reports. The Samsung falls just shy of the OCZ in performance, but I already have one running another workstation and it's great. And it has far more consistently positive reviews out there.

I've pretty much been scarred off of OCZ SSD's these days after a few bad experience's with their sandforce controller firmware on the Vertex 2's. I know they have apparently really ramped up their testing and validation process on newer models, but reports like yours Jeff really make it hard to put trust back in them. I pretty much only consider Intel's SSD's these days as their validation and compatibility testing process seems to be so much better than other manufacturers.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I was able to get in touch with OCZ and HP yesterday... As I pretty much figured, I got little more response than the two pointing fingers at one another. IMNSHO, the blame lies with OCZ on this one. SATA and AHCI interfaces are standardized and it's not like we run into this on any regular basis with common storage devices. The SSD worked just fine before the firmware update. There has already been a track record of the Vertex 4 not working with some BIOS and chipset combinations on the market. They are however replacing the SSD to see if the firmware update did in fact break anything. And they did say they would look into it in more detail if the replacement also didn't work. There was this very stand-offish attitude there. Kinda odd... Almost as bad as calling one of the major HDD makers for a warranty replacement where they want you to jump through hoops and give them error codes from their software.

Too bad it doesn't just work. The IndiLinx controller in the Vertex 4 is much better than previous Sandforce controllers. And the performance is off the charts in the systems where compatibility hasn't been an issue. 450MB/s write times in a 15" 2011 Macbook Pro with this SSD....

 

[PC Greene]

Very well said. My hope & belief is that Apple creates a rack width 1 or 2 rack space thick box (server style-ish) with optional rack "wings" (that otherwise sits in a desk stand like an obelisk) without PCI slots but piles of TB & USB3 connects to connect to a Magma or other PCI chassis for those who need cards & not just CPU. It will accommodate crazy amounts of RAM as well. Small, modular, efficient & highly expandable. Towers form is long in the tooth & time to go away...

 

[Alexander Mejia]

There is a lot of emotional anger in this thread. I'd like to put this into perspective for every one.

Just like NLEs, comptuers are just tools, they aren't a religion.

I wouldn't bet my entire studio on one piece of software or one platform to last forever and ever. You're going to be setting yourself up for disappointment and financial headache if you do.

The pendulum swings both ways.

 

[Elsie N]

...
The pendulum swings both ways.

Yes, but were not talking clocks here. '-)... (old technology clocks, that is.)


But you are right. The systems are basically the same, especially now that Apple has taken down its claim that Macs are virus free. But the issue here is whether or not to use the best tool available now, or wait and hope that Apple will release a machine that matches what's available now in the PC version. And if they do, the question becomes whether or not that machine will be topped by a better version of the HP machine that may or may not be in the pipeline. In other words, if Apple hasn't abandoned the tower market, will they be able to leapfrog a generation and re-enter as an equal to the PC machines that will also be improving?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

without PCI slots but piles of TB & USB3 connects to connect to a Magma or other PCI chassis for those who need cards & not just CPU.

Oh, hell no! Thunderbolt is great for what it is, but it is in no way a substitute for a proper PCIe slot. If one were able to combine both channels of a Thunderbolt port (for 20Gbps aggregate), something Intel currently does not allow for a single device, then that is only equivalent to a PCIe v2.0 X4 slot and it has nearly 5X the latency over a 2m cable or optical cable. So that's not fast enough for any current GPU. Not fast enough for serious storage. Three current-model SSDs like the OCZ Vertex 4 or Samsung 830 in a RAID-0 are fast enough to over-saturate the 10Gbps allowed to a device on a Thunderbolt port.

Unless the next Mac Pro (or equivalent) system ships with at least two free and usable PCIe v3.0 X16 slots (after I have a primary GPU installed), I won't buy it. And I'm sure many other serious power users won't either. Intel has begun, with Ivy Bridge, to incorporate the PCIe host into the CPU itself. with the current E5-2600 series Xeons, in a dual configuration like the Z820 or Dell T7500, there are enough lanes to have 4 PCIe v3.0 X16 slots, 1 v3.0 X8 slot, 1 v3.0 X4 slot and either two X4 2.0 slots or two Thunderbolt ports.

Thunderbolt is to transition to PCIe v3.0 spec around the end of next year, which will increase its speed. And it may also gain 4 channels per port at that time, or within the following year. The mini-DisplayPort connector has the ability to hold 4 channels total.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Yes ketch.. just for the heavy lifting. I have started to see DIT's move over to Windows machines.. the best DITs. It is really transparent when you are in the actual programs.. you would never know what os you are in, the windows machine is just way faster. You can hide it under the desk if you don't want anyone to know

INDEED!!!

 

[Alexander Mejia]

But the issue here is whether or not to use the best tool available now, or wait and hope that Apple will release a machine that matches what's available now in the PC version.

"Best tool" is a pretty black and white description for what this computer does. There are valid reasons to have both this and a mac pro for current Red productions.

You don't use a jack hammer to drive a nail, and you don't use a nail gun to break rock, though I bet you could figure out how to make those tools do what you want.

If you have the money, there is little reason not to have all the tools at your disposal.

 

[Axel Mertes]

I was able to get in touch with OCZ and HP yesterday... As I pretty much figured, I got little more response than the two pointing fingers at one another. IMNSHO, the blame lies with OCZ on this one. SATA and AHCI interfaces are standardized and it's not like we run into this on any regular basis with common storage devices. The SSD worked just fine before the firmware update. There has already been a track record of the Vertex 4 not working with some BIOS and chipset combinations on the market. They are however replacing the SSD to see if the firmware update did in fact break anything. And they did say they would look into it in more detail if the replacement also didn't work. There was this very stand-offish attitude there. Kinda odd... Almost as bad as calling one of the major HDD makers for a warranty replacement where they want you to jump through hoops and give them error codes from their software.

Too bad it doesn't just work. The IndiLinx controller in the Vertex 4 is much better than previous Sandforce controllers. And the performance is off the charts in the systems where compatibility hasn't been an issue. 450MB/s write times in a 15" 2011 Macbook Pro with this SSD....

We had some troubles at the beginning with the HP z800 and the OCZ PCIe RevoDrive3x2. They disappeared after a warm start, while in a cold start they were always there. We got a new firmware for the HP BIOS and the problem went away, we never again had that issue. We also updated now the SSDs firmware to the latest, it didn't break anything like in your case.

Given a free PCIe slot I pretty much prefer the RevoDrives over the Vertex. We have tons of Vertex3 MAX IOPS around, but only for systems that don't have free PCIe slots to acommodate a RevoDrive...

As I wrote: 1000+ MByte/s writing, 1500+ MByte/s reading, sustained.

Cheers,
Axel

 

[Elsie N]

... There are valid reasons to have both this and a mac pro for current Red productions.
...

I suggested this very thing quite a few pages back.