How many of you are not planning to upgrade to Dragon ?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

My thoughts exactly.

yup.. monetarily it makes no sense.. average viewer would never be able to tell the difference.. half the population watches that 120hz crap and thinks it looks good...

also.. cameras in general are a bad investment now days, this goes for sensors.. every year or 2 years camera companies come out with the next best thing.. its planned obsolescence.. theres almost no way to make your return anymore, unless your camera is working constantly.. might work out for some people in smaller populations.. but in the production hubs, forget it.. your competing with rich kids who bought gear, brand themselves DP and hawk the camera out for pennies.. which is fine! I have nothing against it.. I just dont want to invest in equipment with the hopes of getting my money back on it

 

[Brett Harrison]

yup.. monetarily it makes no sense.. average viewer would never be able to tell the difference.. half the population watches that 120hz crap and thinks it looks good...

They might *say* the like it (they'd better like it after spending that cash). They might say the latest Transformers was 'pretty good, yeah it's amazing what they can do with graphics these days'. But if everyone started cooking like McDonalds the world would come to an end in a year or so.

 

[Mark Phelan]

yup.. monetarily it makes no sense.. average viewer would never be able to tell the difference.. half the population watches that 120hz crap and thinks it looks good...

also.. cameras in general are a bad investment now days, this goes for sensors.. every year or 2 years camera companies come out with the next best thing.. its planned obsolescence.. theres almost no way to make your return anymore, unless your camera is working constantly.. might work out for some people in smaller populations.. but in the production hubs, forget it.. your competing with rich kids who bought gear, brand themselves DP and hawk the camera out for pennies.. which is fine! I have nothing against it.. I just dont want to invest in equipment with the hopes of getting my money back on it

It's not planned obsolescence, just what happens with technology. RED is giving us an upgrade path, which is still the exception in this industry.

I've reached a point where it simply doesn't make sense for me to keep chasing the rabbit because I have a ridiculously fine camera in hand. But I am very glad that RED isn't sitting on its laurels and is blazing ahead, there are so many benefits to each of us as RED owners.

This is simply another stage of development in the life of the RED family of owners. I agree with what you're saying about cameras being a bad investment, that really has never changed since before RED appeared. For me, it came along at the right time, right when I was looking for a digital solution. Bingo! The R1 was just the ticket. Then I got a mad offer from the Madman himself to upgrade to an Epic for a fantastic price. Done. Now the gang has given me the opportunity to upgrade to Dragon and for my business, it simply isn't worth it at the moment. That has no reflection on the product, but I've got such a fine camera in hand now, for me, the gains are not worth the expense, and that is just peachy. Might even sell the camera if the right deal comes along, but that doesn't mean I'm leaving the RED family, not by a long shot. I have always liked the way RED thinks because it's exactly how I think regarding files and workflows.

So while I'm not upgrading my camera, yet, I might down the road. And I realize it comes with a penalty of sorts, but that's my own choosing. I might wind up buying a Dragon outright and keeping the Epic as is. Who knows. All in all, it's a great time to be involved with digital cinema, it's only going to get better from here.

 

[Simon Beer]

My Scarlet MX went back to RED Pinewood last Thursday for the Epic MX trade in.

Dragon looks fantastic but for my needs the Epic MX is perfect, my biggest complaint I ever had with Scarlet was the lack of high speed at a decent resolution.

I would have bought Epic MX to start with but simply couldn't afford it back then. Can't wait to get my hands on the Epic, sadly the current wait to have the Scarlet assesed is approximately 2 weeks...

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Finally got my Scarlet back after a week and a half at RED Headquarters. I was worried that the Dragon upgrade wouldn't be worth it, but DAMN. These colors are so natural, and having some slow motion is a blessing. 8:1 REDCODE is so clean in comparison to MX. Daylight that used to feel like it would clip squeezes right in. No IR contamination that burns though color correction time. The grain structure is so film-like. The list goes on...

This is the camera I wanted when I bought my body a year ago. I wish everyone could experience it. Worth every penny, and I hope to get some tests online soon.

 

[Brian Pascale]

I am not upgrading my Scarlet and certainly will not once the price increase happens. Would love to have an Epic and all the frame rates, but it is not worth the $9,500 it would cost, because my clients aren't willing to pay for it, or enough of them, to make it pay. The thing is, for $9,500, there are many tools that could increase revenue, including a whole new camera, instead of just upgrading an existing one. To be honest, my Scarlet does not see that much use, because most of my work people want to shoot quickly, walk with the footage, or have a very quick turn around. I am using my Scarlet to film a comedy web series and have been amazed by the results. Having such great latitude has made it possible to work at a quick pace, use only one light most the time and still have good looking images. I don't doubt a Epic Dragon would be even nicer, but in the end this series will live or die on if people find it funny and entertaining, not if it has the world's best color.

 

[sam karr]

It's a several pronged attack here when it comes to comparing MX and Dragon. 5K MX is a larger format than 5K Dragon, however, the pixel pitch on Dragon is smaller. It does seem to squeak out more detail, but it's hard to do a true apples to apples comparison across the image. Setting a lens at T8 though on both reveals that difference though pretty clearly. It's a slight difference though.

There is one other aspect here and that's REDCODE RAW. It's a bit different than Mysterium-X's REDCODE and it does perform better at various compression ratios.

Sorry but I don't get if it's the dragon or the MX which is squeaking more detail

 

[sam karr]

Finally got my Scarlet back after a week and a half at RED Headquarters. I was worried that the Dragon upgrade wouldn't be worth it, but DAMN. These colors are so natural, and having some slow motion is a blessing. 8:1 REDCODE is so clean in comparison to MX. Daylight that used to feel like it would clip squeezes right in. No IR contamination that burns though color correction time. The grain structure is so film-like. The list goes on...

This is the camera I wanted when I bought my body a year ago. I wish everyone could experience it. Worth every penny, and I hope to get some tests online soon.

Congrats! Can you tell a bit more about the compression difference? And is the slowmo in 5K at high compression rate usable?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Sorry but I don't get if it's the dragon or the MX which is squeaking more detail

I think Phil means Dragon 5k may squeak out more detail than MX 5K, because of the smaller pixels.

I remember Mark Pederson once saying he would take Dragon 4K over MX 5K, which really turned my head.

I've yet to use Dragon, so for now I can only wonder!

 

[sam karr]

I think Phil means Dragon 5k may squeak out more detail than MX 5K, because of the smaller pixels.

I remember Mark Pederson once saying he would take Dragon 4K over MX 5K, which really turned my head.

I've yet to use Dragon, so for now I can only wonder!

Thanx Nick. I discovered your contax thread last week. Now I'm refreshing every 10mn my Ebay page to build a set ..... ^^

 

[Nick Morrison]

Thanx Nick. I discovered your contax thread last week. Now I'm refreshing every 10mn my Ebay page to build a set ..... ^^

Haha. Yeah, the ebay itch comes with the territory. Sorry for that! Welcome to the club! Been shooting on Contax for 4+ years. They look great on RED!

PS - consider getting some from KEH too. Especially the Ex+ ones. They have a great return policy, and generally are a breeze to work with (although some of the really pro ebay sellers are often very accommodating too).

 

[sam karr]

Haha. Yeah, the ebay itch comes with the territory. Sorry for that! Welcome to the club! Been shooting on Contax for 4+ years. They look great on RED!

PS - consider getting some from KEH too. Especially the Ex+ ones. They have a great return policy, and generally are a breeze to work with (although some of the really pro ebay sellers are often very accommodating too).

I'm in Europe. I'm not sure Keh would be interesting with shipping and taxes. But I'll have a look. Thanx. For the moment I'm desperately waiting for some Leitax adapters. It's really long. I can't wait to try.

 

[Paul Schneider]

While recognizing that any upgrade is essentially a bonus, I personally think the price increase slated for December is somewhat ill-advised.

I shoot Epic MX and Dragon side-by-side quite often and am rarely, if ever, able to discern any distinct advantage from the latter. I'm not saying there isn't an advantage, but after multiple shoots and a whole mess of pixel-peeping with some amazing DP's and colorists the difference doesn't say $10K+ to me.

The Scarlet upgrade to either Epic or Dragon is a whole different beast however. That jump from the cropped S35 chip to the wider frame and the addition of the frame rates is worth its weight in gold.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The Scarlet upgrade to either Epic or Dragon is a whole different beast however. That jump from the cropped S35 chip to the wider frame and the addition of the frame rates is worth its weight in gold.

Totally agreed!

 

[Mike P.]

I don't disagree with the Scarlet-to-Epic-X jump, my concern is that if you've waited this long and haven't jumped over to Epic-X for $9500 (which has been available for 18months), you may as well wait for NAB and/or other 4k/raw options and/or the inevitable Epic-X price drops (used or otherwise).

I just really dislike the idea of paying $9500-12,500 and still only having one camera... And technology getting more expensive over time is backwards. May as well drop the additional $5k (or $2k after the upgrade price increase) and get a standalone Scarlet-Dragon... At least then you'll have a back-up/B-cam Scarlet-X...

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I don't disagree with the Scarlet-to-Epic-X jump, my concern is that if you've waited this long and haven't jumped over to Epic-X for $9500 (which has been available for 18months), you may as well wait for NAB and/or other 4k/raw options and/or the inevitable Epic-X price drops (used or otherwise).

I just really dislike the idea of paying $9500-12,500 and still only having one camera... And technology getting more expensive over time is backwards. May as well drop the additional $5k (or $2k after the upgrade price increase) and get a standalone Scarlet-Dragon... At least then you'll have a back-up/B-cam Scarlet-X...

I have to agree, NAB is going to see a lot of raw options. So far Scarlet at its lowest compression has been holding up to its grown up siblings more than well. Even in side my side shoots its been on with the dragon and delivered in 4k

 

[Dean Butler]

I don't have 9,500 to upgrade to dragon from Scarlet right now so I'll happily keep shooting Scarlet. The images didn't suddenly get worse because dragon came out. If the MX - epic upgrade price drops down to around 4 - 5 grand I'd consider that. The extra resolution and lower compression would be really neat as well as the faster frame rates without windowing down. 50fps is enough for me 90% of the time. Spending 9,500 - 12,500 just for an upgrade is just too much for me considering the quality images already being produced by MX. That said, with the flexible oplf options, better highlights, IR filtration and all round colour I'm sure dragon would make my life easier... Just not $9,500 or $12,500's easier.

 

[Phil Holland]

NAB 2015 will present a few new raw 4K options, particularly from one company, but don't assume that some of the major manufacturers are on one year product cycles, because that's not going to be the case.

Also, take note that Epic and and Scarlet Dragon are 6K and 5K digital cinema cameras respectively and in reality, outside of Red products directly, there's in my mind only one available camera that truly competes against Dragon as a digital imaging system and not many people want that camera for a variety of reasons. Heh. That's my opinion though. But it's an informed one.

My next shoot is 6K, 6K 2:1 to be exact. Not many options up here outside of Dragon at the moment in terms of resolution and format. However, there are many cameras for many different shooters and markets at this point.

Upgrading or purchasing a Dragon is both a personal and professional choice, but ignoring the pros of Dragon over Mysterium-X specifically in certain competitive markets is silly to me. But, as I said earlier, Mysterium-X has some long lasting and long running legs. For many it's still the right choice. For others who see where the improvements of Dragon land, well there you are.

There will never be a 100% right answer for everybody on this front because everybody has different needs, wants, and desires. Color, Dynamic Range, IR performance, Format, and Resolution are pretty important to me in particular. And that's where we see the biggest differences between everything else and Dragon currently. And for those of us who are/were MX shooters, we can upgrade to that world. That's a big plus for me.

 

[Brian Merlen]

great answer phil...to each there own!

 

[Mike P.]

I don't disagree with anything Phil has said regarding the Dragon sensor; growing pains aside, it's objectively better than MX (and will be even better a year from now)... That said, I can't help but notice that his comments are very heavily slanted toward Epic/6k (and/or upping Epic-X to Epic-D), not necessarily Scarlet-X to Dragon, Epic-X, or all the way to Epic-Dragon (which is what this thread is about). Which is fine, because there *is* an upgrade option to go from Scarlet-X to Epic-D, but to currently dump $19k (or $22k after Dec.1st) doesn't make any sense (again, considering standalone Epic-Ds are supposed to be $24k, standalone Scarlet-Ds are supposed to be $14.5k, and you'd get a 1 year warranty, and a brand new/second camera).

I said it before, but the Scarlet upgrades are a tough sell. Upgrading now, to any of the options, limits the value of your Scarlet brain to $5k, and after Dec.1st, it limits its value to $2k (not exactly awesome trade-in values, especially considering you only get 90 day warranty on an otherwise 2 year old brain), which is why you're seeing so many for sale on the forums... Sell it for $6-7k, you get more money, and you purchase a brand new camera outright with full warranty. So, with respect to Scarlet specifically, it should be easy to understand where a lot of the "hey, wait, this really isn't *that* good of a deal" comments/posts come from. Obviously, if you've got a project lined up that'll specifically cover the upgrade cost, then it totally makes sense. Otherwise, not so much.

On top of that, all MX cameras are going to fall off in price soon after Dec. 1st and/or after Epic-D/Scarlet-D standalone brains start shipping in quantity. For example, if used Scarlet-Xs are selling for $6k now ($1k more than the trade-in value), after Dec. 1st, I wouldn't be surprised to see them going for $3k* ($1k more than RED's trade-in value) or not sell at all**. Sure, that's optimistic (from a buyer's POV), but if it's much more than that, most price-conscious buyers looking at RED's entry-level camera (used Scarlet-Xs) will just wait it out for BTs (as they likely have been). Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see Epic-X brains going for ~10k-12k next summer (less if RED release any BTs before than or have some insane Dragon-specific announcements at NAB [which will encourage people to bail out of MX]). And again, if you've waited this long and your business hasn't suffered, it's unrealistic for people to think they'll lose tons of their clients to Dragon cameras in the next 4-12 months (unless they're solely feature-film shooters... but even still, they usually shoot Epic-X/D, not Scarlet-X/D).

It doesn't matter how good the sensor is, paying $9500 (or $12500) to upgrade an $6k-8k(new, depending on when you bought) camera to a $14500(new) camera without warranty is not value-added. The only benefit was that it got you a Dragon a few months sooner (which is null now), but even that was marred by the glitches Dragon has been experiencing (sending it back to red for OLPF upgrades/swaps, finding out the various sensor issues/characteristics, etc.).


*I mean a derived value of $3k for just the brain, but more than likely listed at *$4-5k with SSD & Mount.
**As in, a current owner would opt to keep it rather than sell at that price (not that it'd sit unsold).