How many of you are not planning to upgrade to Dragon ?

[sam karr]

What happens with going Scarlet-X to Epic-Dragon *after* Dec.1st? Does it go up to $25k (which is *more* than the price of a new Epic-Dragon brain)? I'm starting to think this stuff wasn't thoroughly thought through on the Scarlet side.

Food for thought: $9500 can net your company a DJI Ronin (with 4k SLR that you could balance and keep on the gimbal), plus a GoPro4 with Phantom2/Gimbal, and a decent amount of support/media/batteries for those items to keep you shootable all day. Don't get me wrong, they'd be baked 4k, BUT I'm inclined to believe that you'd have a much easier time selling any client on a Smooth 4k Gimbal package and 4k Aerial package along with your Scarlet-X package, than you would on *just* a single Scarlet-Dragon package. Hell, at $12,500, you could likely get a 2nd Scarlet-X brain to keep on the Ronin, PLUS the GoPro4 with Phantom2/Gimbal... If you bought that stuff used, you'd probably be able to get a Sony A7s to keep in your back pocket for low-light/full-frame shooting as well... I dunno... In retrospect, I think the best way to go was to upgrade to Epic-X immediately after it was announced, and if you haven't done that by now, you may as well wait for the prices to bottom out on MX cameras.

Yes, we can have a lot of gadgets for that money. On the other hand, the scarlet dragon brings many cool stuffs: iso, colors, dynamic range, 5k, 6k photos, no need for IRND, nice skin, usable slowmotion, specialized OLPF, and it's the beginning of a cycle that will last a few years. I must admit that, playing with the dragon R3Ds i found here and there, it seems to be a pleasure to shoot. And that's important. I'm always more motivated and happy when i take my medium formats film cameras instead of my still digital cams, i know that i will have gorgeous colors, nice highlights, perfect skins, out of the box. Not that i don't like my scarlet, but there is often this tiny part of frustration with the images.

 

[Mike P.]

I know that came off as gadget-lust, but I meant for those examples to point to improved production value. ISO, Colours, DR, 5k-6k, etc etc, don't hold up nearly as well as an incredibly smooth move that a only gimbal could provide. Similarly, a 4k baked-in (even slightly fisheye) aerial shot would likely add more production value than being limited to the top of a ladder with Scarlet-Dragon (in spite of its improved image). And, again, while it's nice to take pictures that are 10-20-30% higher quality, that 10-30% IQ improvement does *not* usually correlate to a 10-30% increase in income, especially in the Scarlet-range of the market... Conversely, a Gimbal package and Aerial package would have a much easier time acquiring 2x-3x the income because, quality aside, they can't realistically be done without that specific kit (whereas a well lit/composed shot will look good at 2k or 6k, with 14stops of DR or 10). Know what I mean?

I guess what I'm saying is, objectively, the value isn't there in the mid-range market segment to warrant such a high upgrade cost (which is also why I said, in retrospect, immediately jumping to the high-end spectrum of the market [Scarlet-to-Epic upgrade path], was likely the best course of action for both the short & long term). While I understand everyone wants to have the best image/bleeding edge tech, and while its very easy to get caught up in the hype, on paper I just don't see that much value. More so, when I consider the potential price drops of MX cameras. Even more than that when compare to what tools -- like gimbals and drones -- which could be acquired for the same amount of dollars.

 

[sam karr]

I guess it depends on the kind of jobs people do. And it's a question of taste too. If i type "red camera" in vimeo, i just see gimbals, aerials and slow motion stuffs. Gimbals are getting really cheap. In a few monthes, people will probably be surprised that you can lock your camera on a tripod and shoot and they will love the effect. Many great directors are still doing that and fine tune their image so everything looks gorgeous. Different approaches. Different goals. Weddings, narrative, documentaries, music videos, different needs and tools.

 

[Maik Müller]

Originally i was planning to do the upgrade for my Scarlet.

Lots of thinking about this lately. I came to the conclusion to skip the upgrade for now and think about doing a trade-in for a Dragon-EPIC or just buying a new Scarlet-X/Dragon-brain next year.

To be honest, the upgrade for Scarlet-X/MX to Scarlet-X/D was never that easy to justify, financial-wise. When you look at the price for a new brain and compare that to the price for the upgrade, maybe add the extra cost for armor, then your current brain gets a value of 5000$ or 3500$. With that price-increase you land at 2000$ or 500$. Thats brutal. The last three numbers, especially the last two, do tell mem i should better keep that brain as it is.

The second option, going EPIC-X/MX and then upgrade that to Dragon for 12500$ doesn't look that attractive to me too, as it would cost 22000$ (without armor).

So, for me, only the trade-in to a EPIC-Dragon is still on the table. Well, or buying new, maybe selling the Scarlet-X/MX-brain.

I'm not complaining, not at all, it's great to have those options and it's even better to be informed about price-increases way before they're going to happen. I can't say that often enough.

 

[Ben Scott]

I'm selling my Scarlet now but still hope to get a Dragon at some point down the line. I just think financially upgrading to the Epic as an interim step was a risk for me because anyone who can afford to rent epic will be able to pay more for Dragon or Alexa.

 

[Brett Harrison]

I think Scarlet Dragon will rent well because it does 5K for S35 and even overcranks to 48 (or 60 in WS). It's affordable Dragon!

 

[Brett Harrison]

Bjorn, what lens and stop was that shot? Love the character of that image!

 

[Phil Holland]

Cheers and thanks Bjorn. And just to chime in as I've been following this discussion as well as having some similar conversations in the last few months with other shooters.

I've been exceptionally fortunate to see Dragon along it's way. Big thanks to Jarred and Mr. Probst for getting that real, real early look. I still think back to that first day out in the harsh sun pointing that prototype Dragon at a junkyard car with the sun glaring right off the windshield with a heavy shadow coming off to one side. I looked real closely at that image. That particular moment was where I saw that Dragon was different than Mysterium-X in the ways that I was hoping it was.

Then along the way seeing it a couple of times leading up to being able to shoot "It's Just Paint" things became a bit clearer. That shoot I did lots of things that weren't ideal and was trying to hit Dragon with some skin, texture, shadow, clipping, etc.... This was back during the V1 OLPF. The images I got out of it were gorgeous.


- click for UHD 4K resolution

That V1 OLPF is what many of the early Dragon shooters had and it was giving us the cleaner higher ISO performance we were impressed by. Breaking into some uncharted territory if you remember some of the other guys test footage. ISO 3200 and even 4000 were very reasonable, heck further too. The color was there, the dynamic range was a pretty tremendous, the highlight roll-off was smooth, and of course the resolution and sensor size was there for those who wanted to explore 6K. The added benefit of not needed additional IR cutting when using Neutral Density Filters was also tremendous from a practical shooting perspective.

However, some folks wanted a bit more in terms of wrangling some of the optical artifacts that the V1 OLPF produced, which were/are some similar artifacts that many of us experienced Mysterium-X shooters were also shooting around.

The V2 OLPF, which is also what we now call the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF became the gold standard as it produced the "highest quality image" out of Dragon. However, the greater protection against those artifacts using either coatings or layers chewed up some of that amazing low light performance we were getting.

However, the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF for those who understand it's strengths produces some of the best (if not the best) color I've seen out of a digital cinema camera:

Having the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF was "enough" for some, but not for all. Some yearned for what "was" with the V1 OLPF. And I personally think Red came through in a unique way with the Interchangeable OLPF concept. And it was a bit surprising to see that the V1 graduated into a very slightly improved Low Light Optimzed OLPF Filter. That nets us about 1 to 1.3 stops "cleaner" texture with a hair more highlight detail retention when compared to the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF.

The good news is there's no really big visual color difference between both of those OLPFs. Meaning the calibration/profile for both of them is fairly matched. So we're still getting that pretty damn good color with very good skin tones, which is to me one of the best things about Dragon:

The good news for Mysterium-X shooters is that MX rocks and has/will make some tremendous images for years to come. However, I've shot my share of footage on Scarlet and Epic Mysterium-X. I know personally what I was looking for in terms of getting "more" out of the overall image quality. Dragon has that. The resolution/format relevance is pretty crucial for some using Super 35mm lenses, where 5K lands that is. The Dynamic Range and Highlight Roll-Off really impressed the hell out of me. But for day to day shooting it's the color and IR performance that really push Dragon into the realm of something I prefer. I also do like the size of 6K and using that as a capture format. Big fan of larger formats in general. Having the option to go between those formats in one camera is wonderful to me.

From my perspective the color, dynamic range, and IR Cut performance was worth the upgrade. For me it's a different medium in that way and it's allowing me to create images I couldn't capture with Mysterium-X. That's not going to be the answer for everybody however. And that's totally okay.

Outside of all this craziness and more from an image maker's perspective I want tools that can help me capture beautiful and vibrant images. I'm getting that with Dragon. I'm certainly excited for what the next few years may have to offer and I can think of a couple handfuls of things that can improve/advance the DSMC system further. But right now Dragon technology is state of the art and it's performing extremely well in the categories that I value the most.

 

[sam karr]

Nice review Phil. 6k seems nice but some will upgrade to scarlet dragon, some others to epic mx. All 5K for motion. How would you describe the sharpness between the 2, 5k on dragon vs 5k on epic mx? I love what I see when i take stills at 5k with my scarlet mx, will I get the same result with dragon (sharp and clean)? I know that the colors and DR will be better. But as the pixels in the dragon are smaller, I'm wondering if there is a difference.

 

[Phil Holland]

Nice review Phil. 6k seems nice but some will upgrade to scarlet dragon, some others to epic mx. All 5K for motion. How would you describe the sharpness between the 2, 5k on dragon vs 5k on epic mx? I love what I see when i take stills at 5k with my scarlet mx, will I get the same result with dragon (sharp and clean)? I know that the colors and DR will be better. But as the pixels in the dragon are smaller, I'm wondering if there is a difference.

It's a several pronged attack here when it comes to comparing MX and Dragon. 5K MX is a larger format than 5K Dragon, however, the pixel pitch on Dragon is smaller. It does seem to squeak out more detail, but it's hard to do a true apples to apples comparison across the image. Setting a lens at T8 though on both reveals that difference though pretty clearly. It's a slight difference though.

There is one other aspect here and that's REDCODE RAW. It's a bit different than Mysterium-X's REDCODE and it does perform better at various compression ratios.

 

[sam karr]

It's a several pronged attack here when it comes to comparing MX and Dragon. 5K MX is a larger format than 5K Dragon, however, the pixel pitch on Dragon is smaller. It does seem to squeak out more detail, but it's hard to do a true apples to apples comparison across the image. Setting a lens at T8 though on both reveals that difference though pretty clearly. It's a slight difference though.

There is one other aspect here and that's REDCODE RAW. It's a bit different than Mysterium-X's REDCODE and it does perform better at various compression ratios.

Thanx. So would 7:1 or 8:1 with 5k dragon be equivalent to epic mx 5K 5:1?

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanx. So would 7:1 or 8:1 with 5k dragon be equivalent to epic mx 5K 5:1?

It's not exactly that simple. It's more about how REDCODE is written and the detail it resolves across various tones and hues. Meaning particularly once you get to the higher compression ratios you'll see the bigger difference. But also some of the tricky stuff like deep dark browns that MX had some issues with have been tightened up a lot.

 

[sam karr]

It's not exactly that simple. It's more about how REDCODE is written and the detail it resolves across various tones and hues. Meaning particularly once you get to the higher compression ratios you'll see the bigger difference. But also some of the tricky stuff like deep dark browns that MX had some issues with have been tightened up a lot.

Thanx again. That's a tough decision ^^ I would go to scarlet dragon in a second if I was sure I will not lose anything from epix mx in 5k. It seems, from what you said here and in your threads, that they are 2 distincts cameras, hard to compare. Well, Gone Girl was shot in 6k but windowed in 5k, so if it's enough for Fincher and Cronenwerth, it's enough for many of us. But it was also shot at 5:1. Maybe the difference with 7:1 is not that huge visually.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Thanx again. That's a tough decision ^^ I would go to scarlet dragon in a second if I was sure I will not lose anything from epix mx in 5k. It seems, from what you said here and in your threads, that they are 2 distincts cameras, hard to compare. Well, Gone Girl was shot in 6k but windowed in 5k, so if it's enough for Fincher and Cronenwerth, it's enough for many of us. But it was also shot at 5:1. Maybe the difference with 7:1 is not that huge visually.

I am sold on DRAGON color science for all the reasons Phil stated. It is brilliant. Having both EPIC and SCARLET DRAGONs, the big differences for me are (1) higher frame rates of EPIC at lower compression ratios, and (2) wider range of formats (including 6K and 5.5K). I got the EPIC DRAGON first, which spoiled me, then the SCARLET DRAGON. At first I was disappointed by the SCARLET DRAGON, even though I specifically bought it because I did the math and told myself I didn't need a second camera with all the bells and whistles that EPIC DRAGON offered. And I don't. But the EPIC is like a racehorse that makes you want to ride everything harder.

If you move from EPIC MX to SCARLET DRAGON, you will move forward in terms of imagery, you will enjoy slightly better lens coverage for S35 zoom lenses (at the cost of losing a bit of the wide end of your frame-filling wide angles), but you will most definitely suffer in terms of frame rates. Which may be an issue if it's your only camera.

I shoot SCARLET DRAGON mostly at 5K FF using 8:1 compression (the best it will do). I have no complaints about that at all. And yes, it will do 7:1 at 5K WS, which I supposed is "better". I have a big S35 zoom that doesn't cover DRAGON 6K/EPIC MX 5K at the wide end, so having a smaller sensor area is not a negative for that very important case. But SCARLET 5K loses 10% of the wide end of frame-filling lenses, meaning that 18mm reads like a 20mm. A 14mm reads like 15.5mm. These are solvable problems, if you have the extra lenses lying around. If not, they change the cost equation pretty dramatically. But the really big difference to me is that the SCARLET is really geared to be a 24fps camera , and it quickly runs out of gas as the frame rates crank up. If you are used to using higher frame rates on EPIC MX from time to time, you will miss them immediately with SCARLET DRAGON. And because SCARLET DRAGON doesn't do half-K resolutions (i.e., 4.5K, 3.5K, etc), you cannot slide gently down the resolution/frame rate curve.

If the frame rate/resolution tradeoffs are ones you never make because you're locked into 24fps all the time, then you "will not lose anything from EPIC MX" going to SCARLET DRAGON. Except maybe a little at the wide end. 8:1 vs. 7:1 vs. 5:1 is by far not the biggest issue in this decision.

 

[Scott Crawley]

"Dream so big you can share!"

I like that... May have to borrow it.

 

[sam karr]

I am sold on DRAGON color science for all the reasons Phil stated. It is brilliant. Having both EPIC and SCARLET DRAGONs, the big differences for me are (1) higher frame rates of EPIC at lower compression ratios, and (2) wider range of formats (including 6K and 5.5K). I got the EPIC DRAGON first, which spoiled me, then the SCARLET DRAGON. At first I was disappointed by the SCARLET DRAGON, even though I specifically bought it because I did the math and told myself I didn't need a second camera with all the bells and whistles that EPIC DRAGON offered. And I don't. But the EPIC is like a racehorse that makes you want to ride everything harder.

If you move from EPIC MX to SCARLET DRAGON, you will move forward in terms of imagery, you will enjoy slightly better lens coverage for S35 zoom lenses (at the cost of losing a bit of the wide end of your frame-filling wide angles), but you will most definitely suffer in terms of frame rates. Which may be an issue if it's your only camera.

I shoot SCARLET DRAGON mostly at 5K FF using 8:1 compression (the best it will do). I have no complaints about that at all. And yes, it will do 7:1 at 5K WS, which I supposed is "better". I have a big S35 zoom that doesn't cover DRAGON 6K/EPIC MX 5K at the wide end, so having a smaller sensor area is not a negative for that very important case. But SCARLET 5K loses 10% of the wide end of frame-filling lenses, meaning that 18mm reads like a 20mm. A 14mm reads like 15.5mm. These are solvable problems, if you have the extra lenses lying around. If not, they change the cost equation pretty dramatically. But the really big difference to me is that the SCARLET is really geared to be a 24fps camera , and it quickly runs out of gas as the frame rates crank up. If you are used to using higher frame rates on EPIC MX from time to time, you will miss them immediately with SCARLET DRAGON. And because SCARLET DRAGON doesn't do half-K resolutions (i.e., 4.5K, 3.5K, etc), you cannot slide gently down the resolution/frame rate curve.

If the frame rate/resolution tradeoffs are ones you never make because you're locked into 24fps all the time, then you "will not lose anything from EPIC MX" going to SCARLET DRAGON. Except maybe a little at the wide end. 8:1 vs. 7:1 vs. 5:1 is by far not the biggest issue in this decision.

Did you notice any difference between epic dragon and scarlet dragon in 5k? I remember some threads that claimed that there was a difference between epic mx and scarlet mx at the same resolution and same compression.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Did you notice any difference between epic dragon and scarlet dragon in 5k? I remember some threads that claimed that there was a difference between epic mx and scarlet mx at the same resolution and same compression.

I treat the two as identical with identical resolution and REDCODE compression rates. Thus far, nothing's ever told me that's wrong.

 

[Ben Scott]

I think Scarlet Dragon will rent well because it does 5K for S35 and even overcranks to 48 (or 60 in WS). It's affordable Dragon!

It doesn't matter how good it is. My experience has been that if you are trying to monetize your investment, people who could afford to rent Scarlet could afford to rent Epic and would prefer to do so. People wanted the camera that shot Prometheus, not the little brother of the camera that shot Prometheus.

 

[Scott Crawley]

It doesn't matter how good it is. My experience has been that if you are trying to monetize your investment, people who could afford to rent Scarlet could afford to rent Epic and would prefer to do so. People wanted the camera that shot Prometheus, not the little brother of the camera that shot Prometheus.

I some markets that is undoubtedly true. However I know that I have picked up Scarlet work that would have gone to competitors were it not for the fact that they upgraded and had to price themselves into a new tier.

 

[Ben Scott]

Good for you. I wish I'd been able to find gap in the market but that mid ground seems non-existent in my arena at least.