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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How does the BMD Mini Pro compare to Raven for ENG work, and Pocket to Red Camera Pho

W

Wayne Morellini

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Well BMD has released the Mini PRO with ENG features, which is likely just a fixed up Mini with all the features the Mini 4k should have had, but at such a high price it begs the question why buy it instead of a Raven with better sensor technology?

How does the Raven compare for ENG work, in handling and workflow?

The other thing is the Red patents for a 6k Camera Phone. Which I hope to see by end of NAB. Frankly, this should offer some good stuff against the Mini, with helium sensor. But I suspect a 4k BMD Pocket other, is coming at some higher pricing (hence higher priced Mini) but at a price likely to be similar too, or higher than a probably more handy 6k Red phone would be. If only they were announced we could compare them too. But the issue is, how would such a, likely less than $2k with modest codec performance, 6k phone with lens compare to using a Mini Pro, how much would you have to deck it out?

Thanks.
 
Seems like more of a personal preference question. The quality of the image is up for easy comparison, since the 4.6K sensors have been in use for a while - that hasn't changed. So, decide if you love or hate the image coming from either camera. If you have to have internal ND's, the answer is easy - URSA Mini Pro. If you have to have XLR inputs built in, then again, URSA Mini Pro. Both of those features are nice for documentary-style shooting, and don't require the add-ons that a Raven would. The other advantage is that the UMP is going to be on the shelves, whereas the Raven isn't even accepting orders. So that might make the decision for you.
 
Shawn P said:
Not to be a noob. What is ENG work?
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Camera on shoulder, one camera man doing framing, focus, zoom and capuring audio. Somthing like a TV news reporting camera instead of shooting with a focus puller camera operator and dop.
 
Electronic News Gathering. Plus what Bjorn said.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
Well BMD has released the Mini PRO with ENG features, which is likely just a fixed up Mini with all the features the Mini 4k should have had, but at such a high price it begs the question why buy it instead of a Raven with better sensor technology? How does the Raven compare for ENG work, in handling and workflow?
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I think a lot boils down to personal choice, so the best advice would be to rent or borrow each for a weekend and try it out and see how they feel to you. I think just as Red created "disruptive technology" with the Red camera years ago, there's always the chance other companies will do the same thing with cheaper cameras. One point in favor of BMD is that this is pretty much their top of the line camera, vs. buying the lowest-price Red camera. My experience is that the Red cameras are generally less noisy, but I haven't seen the new Ursa Mini Pro camera so I can't say how it looks yet. On paper, it looks fine and the design looks pretty good.
 
on the real. I wouldnt trust any csmeras by black magic for eng. You need reliability. Im not putting these one time only interviews, and filming current events in risk for a camera i may have to have exchanged due to defects.
You already so much to worry about for ENG work as an individual. The last thing I want to deal with is my camera not working.
Also because of the turnarounds, i'd rather have smaller files then those quad 4's or uncompressed dng's.
Im way more emotionally comfortable with a sony camera that's proven on field.
 
Kazu Okuda said:
on the real. I wouldnt trust any csmeras by black magic for eng. You need reliability. Im not putting these one time only interviews, and filming current events in risk for a camera i may have to have exchanged due to defects.
You already so much to worry about for ENG work as an individual. The last thing I want to deal with is my camera not working.
Also because of the turnarounds, i'd rather have smaller files then those quad 4's or uncompressed dng's.
Im way more emotionally comfortable with a sony camera that's proven on field.
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You can shoot all flavors of ProRes, not just 4444.

I used to own a BMCC and recorded many long, single takes (often an hour or more in one take) with no issues. I've also been helping out on a no-budget feature with the DP's BMPC, and we've had zero issues this entire year.

The QC has definitely been a problem with Blackmagic, but I feel like if you get a solid copy and have put it through a few weeks of testing, you should be fine. My BMCC lasted 5 years and I just sold it to a budding filmmaker friend of mine and it's working just fine for him, too.

I'm always rooting for Blackmagic to do well, even though I ended up going with an Epic-W in the end.
 
Yep. It makes you want to save for an Epic :)

BMD is in the same situation Red was in for a few years where teething hiccups went into folklore and issues from a few years ago are still being touted as reasons not to use them. That said, they are still the ultimate 'on paper' manufacturer though, where when you have it in your hands all of the quirks and gotchas and issues tend to add up to make the camera far less than the sum of its parts and specs.

Might be different with this iteration but they have a lot of work to do win over those already not in the choir.
 
Raven is not designed for ENG style shooting, Ursa Minor is.
Reliability however is yet to be seen.
 
I don't have the experience to really know everything to look for in the future as far as what it is like to work one of these long term. The Raven is just another Red, so is likely similar but different specs etc. Just auto in camera grading so you can hand off footage baked, or avoid the step on the cheap community orientated jobs often done.

I'm likely not buying anything before NAB (the yi 4k+ if it had zoom, focus, aperture ,etc, through menu, button, and mobile app, better sensor with starvis and HDR, and two or more cameras to be used for post processing and 3D processing of the film).

I'm more interested in the pocket or Red Camera Phone with the mini at that price, but if it was $2995 I would be interested in that.

Kazu and Aroon, I agree. You need to sit down and carefully design and pick parts for reliability and performance. The pocket, despite its issues, seems to have people saying it is more reliable. The PC XT of the cinema camera world.
 
Hrvoje, I've come across something interesting. I have old pocket samples here, I was going to show you. They are wonderful to look at, handle low light and mixed contrast scenes far better than I would have expected. Even in vivid the colors seem to be only a bit above normal. But I have noticed a few things, I think that the color filter titles have broader over lapping curves. I don't see any pure primary, the nice colors are somewhat pastel. People used to say that the footage from early micron sensor cameras looked like negative movie film. The look of the cameras is like super negative film look. The colors look like they have complementary colors in them, and pastel. The broader overlapping primaries might explain the better low light and handling of mixed contrast scenes. The in camera auto color looks like a nice grade by itself (except for a little more saturation) than a number I have seen.

So, what do you think of it's picture Hrvoje?
 
I have a Raven and I wouldn't trade it for a mini pro BUT I would love to add a mini pro to my arsenal. I used to have the pocket and despite the screen being scratched it worked perfectly with no problems. It really does matter what copy you get unfortunately or it used to matter..maybe now its all good.
 
Can you guys use like those iphone glass screen protectors cut to size?
 
Kazu Okuda said:
on the real. I wouldnt trust any csmeras by black magic for eng. You need reliability. Im not putting these one time only interviews, and filming current events in risk for a camera i may have to have exchanged due to defects.
You already so much to worry about for ENG work as an individual. The last thing I want to deal with is my camera not working.
Also because of the turnarounds, i'd rather have smaller files then those quad 4's or uncompressed dng's.
Im way more emotionally comfortable with a sony camera that's proven on field.
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Have you used one and know for sure they are unreliable? I have no experience, which is why I am asking. Every new camera has their teething period. This is a Red camera forum, so obviously pro Red, but no reason to put down another camera brand. It can be taken the wrong way.

I like the idea of internal NDs, but then you are stuck with the quality of ND they use. Are they Formatt Firecrest / NiSi quality or something you would never put in front of your camera? If the Motion Mount (MM) had no loss of light, when off, it would be the best way to go. Even with the light loss, if they made a second generation MM in VV size, I would buy with no questions asked. I miss my MM. I need to find someone with a Canon MM in the Seattle area so I can test the coverage.
 
Stacey, an Eng camera has a lot different setup then that needed for cinema camera (we literally had guys in the old days simply wanted to use a sensor recorder and optical view finder with everything else manually adjusted without monitoring or menus, exposure, everything. So, I ask about cameras and their Real eng use with instant deliverables, because in the real world on low end local jobs you want one take minimal/next to no editing or color correction if possible, because that is how you keep the costs down to make money. This is like 80+% of the real work out there. So I ask people with hands on experience, does a camera cover the bases. I usually don't get an adequate reply.

It's obvious that the mini itself is not the most adequate because they released a PRO version for Eng at a rediculously higher price here.
 
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