How does prores gets encoded on DSMC²?

[Fabricio Morato]

Hello everyone,

tried searching around but could not find this.
My question, out of curiosity, is how does the prores encoding on DSMC² works. For instance, if I'm shooting Redcode 8:1, and simultaneously prores 444, does the prores encoder gets feed from this 8:1 source? Or it comes straight from the raw sensor data (before redcode)?
And a follow up question depending on the answer, if I'm shooting prores solo, and if it's being encoded from the redcode source, does it mean that it's encoding from the highest quality redcode option available for that resolution?

Thanks and sorry if this was answer elsewhere.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I was under the impression that the ProRes was direct from sensor and was being encoded separately from the redcode options. But it would be good to have this confirmed.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I'm 99.9% sure it's encoded off the sensor.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I'm reading the entire manual slowly over the holidays for weapon and hoping to understand more by New Years about this. Also interested if 4K prores in CF can be done with r3d

 

[Phil Holland]

Hello everyone,

tried searching around but could not find this.
My question, out of curiosity, is how does the prores encoding on DSMC² works. For instance, if I'm shooting Redcode 8:1, and simultaneously prores 444, does the prores encoder gets feed from this 8:1 source? Or it comes straight from the raw sensor data (before redcode)?
And a follow up question depending on the answer, if I'm shooting prores solo, and if it's being encoded from the redcode source, does it mean that it's encoding from the highest quality redcode option available for that resolution?

Thanks and sorry if this was answer elsewhere.

I personally like to think there's miniature elves in there hand painting frames and baking them in ovens then gently wrapping them in a ProRes decorative paper

Kidding aside.

From what I understand is that the .R3D REDCODE RAW and ProRes are two separate streams independent of each other. Meaning it's bypassing REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios all together, which is how it should work. That said, ProRes itself has it's own inherent compression/compression ratios, which is how the codec works. This is dependent on which flavor you select and what resolution you are writing out to. For instance, I believe 4K ProRes HQ is around a 6:1 ratio if I'm not mistaken.

The interesting things here regarding the 4K and 2K ProRes are you can indeed scale down from a higher capturing resolution to those encoding resolutions and a have a deliverable file. The ProRes files themselves have their own dedicated stream that you can apply a unique look to, and on cameras that support it, their own 3D LUT. Additionally you have access to the output stream sharpening setting, which I wouldn't go too overboard on, but I found you can get some generally pleasing results by not over sharpening up to about 25%-ish.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

While we are discussing - and some of us are waiting for - ProRes, can anyone comment as to whether to ProRes being recorded by a Scarlet-W will be inherently superior to recording ProRes on to an external recorder?

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I believe they should be the same as long as you have a quality external recorder. The SDI signal is direct from the sensor.

The benefit of shooting direct to ProRes on Scarlet-W vs an external recorder would just be ease, and less thing to go wrong.

 

[Fabricio Morato]

Thanks guys for the fast response. I was also under the impression that it was a separate stream, but since I found nothing on red.com and here I started to overthink this I guess hehe

Also thanks Phil for dropping by and giving a little bit of your knowledge on this matter.

I think that the 2k prores (444 and 422 hq) will be a very popular format down here for acquisition. I know a lot of places that just would prefer and be more comfortable with prores than dealing with R3D.

While we are discussing - and some of us are waiting for - ProRes, can anyone comment as to whether to ProRes being recorded by a Scarlet-W will be inherently superior to recording ProRes on to an external recorder?

I don't know if would make a huge difference, but maybe the internal 5k sensor directly to 2k prores would be better than sensor to 1080p RGB to prores? Don't know..someone would have to test it


Thanks again for everyone that responded here!

 

[Med D]

Thinking about this topic makes me wonder why the current DSMC can't create in-camera prores clips using the typically lengthy times between shots. Unless you are shooting docs/interviews typical clip lengths are short relative to total camera on times. That extra time when the camera is on but not really being used could be used to create the secondary clips. I am probably assuming the DSMC is way more configurable than it really is though. This approach would not be limited by data rates either, which means that the cheaper DSMC2 cams like Scarlet could create 4k prores.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Thinking about this topic makes me wonder why the current DSMC can't create in-camera prores clips using the typically lengthy times between shots. Unless you are shooting docs/interviews typical clip lengths are short relative to total camera on times. That extra time when the camera is on but not really being used could be used to create the secondary clips. I am probably assuming the DSMC is way more configurable than it really is though. This approach would not be limited by data rates either, which means that the cheaper DSMC2 cams like Scarlet could create 4k prores.

You're asking for a RedRocket-x card in the camera to convert to ProRes in between takes?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Probably because the elves Phil spoke of above don't live inside the DSMC1 bodies.

 

[Med D]

I'm not really asking for anything as I don't use prores that often. I'm suggesting that the brain could transcode in the background though, yes. After all it already takes a fat data stream and encodes it when recording, and then decodes it for playback. The pieces are there and they can apparently all run in real time on DSMC2, with prores included. Asking if they can run at a lesser rate in the background seems like a reasonable question.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thinking about this topic makes me wonder why the current DSMC can't create in-camera prores clips using the typically lengthy times between shots. Unless you are shooting docs/interviews typical clip lengths are short relative to total camera on times. That extra time when the camera is on but not really being used could be used to create the secondary clips. I am probably assuming the DSMC is way more configurable than it really is though. This approach would not be limited by data rates either, which means that the cheaper DSMC2 cams like Scarlet could create 4k prores.

Inside the DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] is a highly optimized and dedicated hardware encoder. This is what is allowing for ProRes to be recorded in "real time". Without something like that you'll be baking your files in a very, very un-accelerated way. Meaning your encoding time would extremely high even for short takes. Having a dedicated encoder and dedicated processors/streams/ASICs (all that stuff) is what is allowing for dual REDCODE RAW and ProRes Recording.

The processors and boards that are dedicated for these tasks are pretty much what make up the differences between the models in DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] cameras. More power, higher data rates, etc.

The architecture needed to allow for a DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] brain to transcode from previously recorded .R3Ds might be possible, but more likelly, doesn't exist. Though I think you'd be better off transcoding on a dedicated box for that anyways if that was the chosen workflow.

 

[Anton Shavlik]

Also, having a passive conversion to prores means doing it after red compression rather than from the sensor directly.

Is the prores in Weapon a 'full debayer'? Isn't the SDI and HDMI set to 'half good' or something like that?

 

[Nick Morrison]

I believe they should be the same as long as you have a quality external recorder. The SDI signal is direct from the sensor.

Except that isn't the SDI half debayer? Whereas Im assuming whats recorded internally in DSMC2 would be FULL debayer, no?

 

[Bob Gundu]

Also, having a passive conversion to prores means doing it after red compression rather than from the sensor directly.

Is the prores in Weapon a 'full debayer'? Isn't the SDI and HDMI set to 'half good' or something like that?

Yes it's half debayer through SDI/HDMI

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Except that isn't the SDI half debayer? Whereas Im assuming whats recorded internally in DSMC2 would be FULL debayer, no?

Ahh, yes. The things you forget when you don't ever use HDMI/SDI for recording.

I wonder how the Scarlet-W will debayer the ProRes. Seeing as it would require a lot of processing power to record R3D and full debayer ProRes at the same time and at that price point, its certainly an amazing feat.

 

[Anton Shavlik]

I suppose that's what's nice about ASICs, you can design one specifically to turn the sensor data into prores rather than use a more general processor like you would turning .r3d into prores on your computer.

 

[Robin Moran]

Anyone having problem transcoding the 2k to 720p? I get an error about audio. I'm guessing because the audio is 32-bit integer. Thoughts?