How do I get 4K to edit without breaking the bank?

[OwenR]

Hi

I rob a bank and get this Wonderfull red one how do i get the highest
definition data to my edit suite.

Can I record Red Raw uncompressed High Definition to the Red Drive?
what length of footage will i be able to store on the drive...

Do I need the raw output port?

I have Final Cut Pro on a G5 Mac dual processor 2GHZ will there be a Red Card to enable me to successfully capture data from the red drive to my MAC?

Very excited about the Red Camera and the definition of 4K but how do i keep
that definition ie not compress it downgrade it etc....

Cheers look forward to some replies and shooting Red

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Take a look at the workflow diagram under 4k Workflow board. Your best bet to edit is to do an SD offline edit with a 4k conform at the end.

 

[OwenR]

Ok I will check out that workflow.

What exactly would I need to achieve this the raw port? and which capture
card for the Mac?

Also seen this suggestion from around the forum

"4K acquisition + 2K/1080p finishing is, as others have said, definitely the way to go."


We are shooting a low budget feature very soon and we have the possibility of specefic funding for camera...we have been looking at a number of High Definition Digital with 35mm Lense systems...

 

[Teague Kennedy]

I think if you are on any kind of budget (and maybe if you are not) forget about uncompressed 4k raw. From everything that Red has disclosed no human eye (even pro) can discern between redcode RAW and uncompressed RAW even on a 4k projector. Redcode RAW 4k is 27MB/sec. Just use it.

 

[Dan Blanchett]

At NAB more options may become available. I say wait a couple of weeks and see what manifests.

 

[OwenR]

A Red novice we were looking at various adaptors to attach 35mm lenses to High Definition camera when we saw Red!

But having looked at a number of system it seems you capture and then somewhere along the line you downgrade/compress...

We were looking at Canon XL - H1 with adaptor and
a Panasonic....

Ive seen options from 8K - 28K (Red with raw red lenses etc)

We have two possible budgets well actually three

1) Budget of 8K - uk pounds inc VAT
2) Budget of 20K - UK pounds inc VAT
3) No budget yet but we will keep working on it!

Budget to include camera,lenses, capture card

Any advice on lenses to use?
Capture Card for MAC G5 2GHZ dual processor?

 

[Dan Blanchett]

Isn't 20K pounds about 39K US dollars? You can get a suitable RED package, a one 35mm ZOOM (or a set of still prime lenses), AND an editing system for that. Or close to it, if you budget right. With only 8K you will have to look elsewhere, or rent.

However, you may have to wait a bit for your camera, since only current rez holders will likely get their camera before October. Just a consideration.

You may want to check out the other sections on Workflow and Lenses to get specific recommendations on those items. A clearer picture will emerge after NAB later this month.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

For less than the price of a camera you could rent everything for a month long shoot. Especially if you are already picking up a package at a rental house.

Rent:

At least (1) Body
(2) HDD Drives
(1) LCD or viewfinder
+ the rest of your package

Record at 4k Redcode RAW to the HDDs.

Convert the footage to 1080p RGB Redcode using REDCine and finish offline. If you ever need a 4k master... and I doubt you will... you can roll out the cash to have a post house conform for you.

You could pick up an editing system for < $4,000 that would handle it in real time no problem.

I don't see any reason to use the Uncompressed Serial port unless you need the higher framerates at 4k. From what I can tell REDCode will probably be milder than HDCAM SR not to mention the extra resolution will practically guarantee an HD master will be super clean.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Hi
Can I record Red Raw uncompressed High Definition to the Red Drive?
what length of footage will i be able to store on the drive...

Yes you can but you probably won't want to. Redcode should be fine.

Do I need the raw output port?

Probably not.

I have Final Cut Pro on a G5 Mac dual processor 2GHZ will there be a Red Card to enable me to successfully capture data from the red drive to my MAC?

No you can't. Buy a new Intel Mac (wait a few months, though). Well, you could go from the Red's HD-SDI to a kona or blackmagic but that would be losing a lot of the advantages of red.

Very excited about the Red Camera and the definition of 4K but how do i keep
that definition ie not compress it downgrade it etc....

We are too. But open your heart to the magic of good compression. It will not degrade things much at all and might make your life easier.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[OwenR]

Thanks for all the repiles - a clearer red

Thanks for all the repiles - a clearer red

The above budgets

the 8k & 20K are both potential buying budgets and inc VAT additional rental budgets would be available to hire on projects.

1) As were in it for the long time would it be better to buy at least
the red one body? and hire the lenses? and in consideration of the October
filming date?

2) Would any where preferably UK be willing to do a rent to buy deal the feature were looking to do has a 6 week filming period

...or anywhere willing to consider an ex-rental at some point?

3) So my Mac G5 dual 2GHZ would not be suitable? - so i need to purchase
a new Intel Mac?

..and will be waiting a few months whats on the horizon?

4) Other alternatives for October Ive been looking at adaptors eg Mini35,MovieTube and the M2 system with Canon H1 or Sony Z1E

And thanks for the reminder about good compression....

Thanks to you all for your help

 

[Chris Kenny]

Owen,

Shooting REDCODE RAW 4K (about 27.5 MB/s), you can shoot a couple of hours of footage to a Red Drive, which then hooks up to your computer like a normal external hard drive, for downloading footage. This is a much more reasonable workflow than uncompressed for anyone with budget considerations, or who doesn't want to have to have the camera tethered to a RAID the size of a mini-fridge on set.

As far as using your current computer... the REDCINE software, used for processing footage, only runs on Intel, so you might want to buy a Mac Pro. Your current computer will probably still be fine for offline editing, after footage has been processed into an appropriate format, or perhaps even for online editing, if you're finishing at 1080p or below.

 

[OwenR]

Thanks

Thanks

So its not that my G5 2MHZ dual processor / fcp cant edit the footage but the software wont run on it ..

What if I run virtual PC on it?

Or run the software on one of my PCs with P4 3GHZ HT?

So the software is on camera and on computer i thought it was just on the camera.....

Any chance Apple would sort out so that i can capture straight into FCP?

Any chance of Red doing a version of the software that would run on my MAC?

So for a 7hr day Im going to need approx 4 drives

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So its not that my G5 2MHZ dual processor / fcp cant edit the footage but the software wont run on it ..

What if I run virtual PC on it?

Due to necessary hardware optimization, RED had to specifically tweak the code for the Intel CPUs to get the best performance. No real reason to support the G5 platform at this point in time. It's already reached EOL and support from most vendors as well as Apple is being phased out. Such is the nature of the business.

As for products like VirtualPC, no hope there. They run too slow due to the emulation. And instruction sets for newer CPU hardware as well as GPU access and other such necessary features are not available.

Or run the software on one of my PCs with P4 3GHZ HT?

We should know more about system requirements at NAB. However, a P4 3GHz should run REDCINE and allow you to at least get your conversions made and get you ready to edit. It won't be all that fast compared to newer dual and quad core Core2 systems, but it's definitely a start.

So the software is on camera and on computer i thought it was just on the camera.....

The computer end of the software is REDCINE. Depending on your workflow and intended use, it may not even be necessary. For example, if you shoot REDCODE RGB 1080p scaled from the 4K sensor area and record on camera. You can take those REDCODE RGB data files right from the RED DRIVE (or FLASH) that you shot to and copy them directly over to a computer that has the REDCODE codecs installed. REDCODE RGB is your REDCODE editing codec, so theoretically with that footage you could bypass REDCINE and go right into FCP.

This should all be confirmed at NAB. Also the first 100 cameras or so will still be short on a few features until firmware updates come to enable them. And some of these features will be RGB related.

Any chance Apple would sort out so that i can capture straight into FCP?

Shooting RED, as with many of the newer tapeless camera systems out there, don't work this way. The workflow is IT-based, you shoot with the camera and then simply move your data files where you need them. FCP doesn't capture, you import them right into your media bin and edit away.

Any chance of Red doing a version of the software that would run on my MAC?

Highly doubtful. The last of the G5 series was the 2.5GHz quad-core. I still own one of these and it's my all time favorite system. However, I know that it will have to be replaced as a primary workstation when my RED arrives. Like I said, these are late model systems now at end of life, according to Apple. Most software vendors with PPC software will continue to support for a while. But don't count on much, if any new software support. Especially from newer applications like REDCINE that are designed to take advantage of the latest hardware out there.

So for a 7hr day Im going to need approx 4 drives

Depends on what modes you shoot. If you shoot 4K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps, you can get 3 hours on a single RED Drive. Shooting REDCODE RGB will take up more space, but if you're shooting RGB it will be at lower resolutions in most situations, so I'm not sure how it will work out in the end. I would guess that REDCODE RGB 1080p will require about 33MB/s or so at 24fps. ...But that's a guess.

 

[Bruce Allen]

The above budgets
3) So my Mac G5 dual 2GHZ would not be suitable? - so i need to purchase
a new Intel Mac?

Red has publicly stated RedCine will require an Intel Mac.

..and will be waiting a few months whats on the horizon?

Faster ones - I posted about this on post #126 in the "4K finishing folly thread" (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=781&page=13)

4) Other alternatives for October Ive been looking at adaptors eg Mini35,MovieTube and the M2 system with Canon H1 or Sony Z1E

Make sure you look at the SGPro and Brevis too for 35mm adapters - cheap and they seem to be a bit better than the M2.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Make sure you look at the SGPro and Brevis too for 35mm adapters - cheap and they seem to be a bit better than the M2.

FWIW, I've used the M2 with the HVX200 and it was pretty good. However, the Brevis is better in both design and image quality, IMO.

 

[Chris Kenny]

The REDCODE QuickTime codecs will run on PPC. Just the REDCINE software won't. My understanding is REDCINE actually isn't strictly necessary, but it gives you a lot more control over manipulating footage prior to conversion to other formats than you'd otherwise have.

Yes, there's a Windows version REDCINE, so if you have Windows machines kicking around but no Intel Macs, you should be able to run it there.

In terms of capturing right into Final Cut... "capturing" from a Red Drive literally consists of just copying files around. So, there's no need for FCP support for capture. Just drag the files to your hard drive, then drag them into Final Cut.

 

[OwenR]

Another Summary some more questions

Another Summary some more questions

So

1) I need to get a new Intel Mac, eventually .

2) But I may be able to use the Red Cine software on my PC if
required

3) But I may just be able to import the file straight into FCP
once i have copied from Red Drive to the MAC

Ill have another look at the workflow

Is that through f/wire/usb or another interface will f/wire,usb allow me to capture 4k RedCode?

So probably 3/4 drives would be a good idea copied across at the end of each day or even during the day....

Can the two 160GB drives be used as a backup for each other? is this necessary?

Thanks all...im definately thinking red....

Thanks for the advice on the adaptors, I would like some advice on a good but not too expensive set of lenses approx 3,000 UK pounds. any suggestions... ideally ones i can use with adaptor and then use with my Red when we get that...as we hope to shoot in October.....

 

[Chris Kenny]

Ill have another look at the workflow is that through f/wire/usb
or?

or another card of interface will f/wire usb allow me to capture 4k RedCode?

The Red Drive has USB2 and FireWire ports. You just hook it up like an external hard drive (it is an external hard drive) and copy files over.

Can the two 160GB drives be used as a backup for each other? is this necessary?

Red has mentioned in passing that there's a mirroring feature. This would, of course, cut your record time in half. It might also have implications for what formats you could shoot, since throughput would be reduced. We'll probably know more at NAB.

As for whether that sort of thing is necessary... it depends how paranoid you are.

 

[OwenR]

If as reliable as MiniDV tape then....

If as reliable as MiniDV tape then....

Id be happy not to use a backup at recording stage!

Now to wade through the posts on Lenses my problem is that im not a DOP/Camera person....

As mentioned before im looking for lenses that will do a good job but not break the bank approx
3.5K UK pounds was about the figure i was quoted for these:-
New Zeiss Nikon Mounted lenses
25mm t2.8 586.325
35mm t2 586.325
50mm t1.4 381.875
85mm t1.4 757.875
100mm t2 1169.125

All prices in £s and inc Vat @ 17.5%

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Ad Mac

The secret voodoo dwarf has been mumbling in my ear for a year now:
Wait untill the 8-core macs come

The humming has been so loud lately, that I actually bought a mini while I wait, just to sit on my desk and render, render, render + code, code, code.

But if it's not announced by NAB - alongside a free FCP 6 system that handles 4k uncompressed while Shake is rendering flip-books on a MacBook in realtime, I might just jump for the dual dualcore 3ghz MacPro...


Gunleik