How could they tell you installed a Birger?

[Stephen Williams]

But according to Jarred's posts they lose their trade in or stage 2 discounts, regardless of whether RED gets the R1 back or not - or are you implying there will be selective enforcement? And what's the legality of it if "Red will never see their cameras."?

Not implying anything, if a customer who never bragged about having a non approved mount, decides to go for Stage 2, I can't see how anybody would be the wiser. No idea of the legality of "Red will never see their camera again", just the possibility of a real world scenario.

Stephen fan of P.S. mount but non owner of a Red camera Williams

 

[Michael Hastings]

Dont worry guys.. I know alot of you are disappointed. That disappointment the first time around made me bend the warranty rules to let it slide.. and unfortunately that didn't work out so well, so we had to close the door again.

But why should it have any effect if you are doing a stage 2 (keep your RED) upgrade?

I know about a dozen RED1 owners that don't have birgers but want to go that route if they stage 2.

 

[Mitch Gross]

This is an incorrect statement.. I am surprised to hear it come from Mitch, but regardless, it is incorrect

Sorry if I am incorrect in statements. Thought I knew what was in there but if you say so I'm not going to question it. Certainly wasn't endorsing the idea of anyone doing such a thing.

 

[Michael Hastings]

This is an incorrect statement.. I am surprised to hear it come from Mitch, but regardless, it is incorrect

Sorry if I am incorrect in statements. Thought I knew what was in there but if you say so I'm not going to question it. Certainly wasn't endorsing the idea of anyone doing such a thing.

Notice he didn't say that the magic pixie dust/hamster part was incorrect!

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Unfortunately, as far as Canon glass goes, there is only the Alesniak mount, which was the first one to be approved. Unfortunately, they have been totally quiet for the past year or so, so I do not know if they even still produce the mounts. I have both their and the Birger canon mount as a dumb version, and the Birger mount is of a superior build quality. (Think: plastic versus quality metal.)

Are you interested in selling your Alesniak mount? How much do you want for it? Is it still approved? Does it require removing the whole PL mount liek Birger?

 

[Martin Weiss]

Sure, make me an offer. As far as I know, it is still approved. And no, not the whole mount needs to be disassembled (which was the reason for its approval in the first place.)

 

[Curran Giddens]

Isn't the i/ technology something that needs to be licensed from Cooke Optics?

Wasn't Red's i/ data implementation hacked by Birger?

About the IMS. Don't forget that Red has developed their own interchangeable mount system for the new cameras. I, for one, am looking forward to it. There will be support for Cannon, Nikon, Leica, etc., but I plan on getting the Red Electronic lenses for FF35. These will only work with Red's proprietary Electronic Mount with custom flange depth. If I want to switch to PL for some Red Primes its just 4 screws.

The lesson is this:
Stick with the Red lenses and mounts for the new cameras and you won't have to worry about any warranty issues. :smiley:

 

[Michael Hastings]

Isn't the i/ technology something that needs to be licensed from Cooke Optics?

Wasn't Red's i/ data implementation hacked by Birger?

About the IMS. Don't forget that Red has to developed their own interchangeable mount system for the new cameras. I, for one, am looking forward to it. There will be support for Cannon, Nikon, Leica, etc., but I plan on getting the Red Electronic lenses for FF35. These will only work with Red's proprietary Electronic Mount with custom flange depth. If I want to switch to PL for some Red Primes its just 4 screws.

The lesson is this:
Stick with the Red lenses and mounts for the new cameras and you won't have to worry about any warranty issues. :smiley:

Curran: I don't think that is accurate as all the Birger mount does is take data that is coming out of the lens and puts it in words the RED can understand. Same thing that happens when say Sigma takes distance and iris and focal length information from the inside of their 18-50 and sends it out in Canon lingo if it is a Canon mount; Nikon lingo if it is Nikon, Sony lingo if its Sony mount, etc.

BTW It is just 4 screws that hold mounts onto the REDONE as well.

----------------------------


EDIT:

PS If you just type cooke optics into your google bar this comes up:

www.cookeoptics.com/
Products
Cooke Red Set
Contact Us
The Cooke Look
Panchro
Technical Resources
News

Click on Technical Resources and then
Click on /i Downloads

1.Cooke /i Lens Display Software (v2.2.2) for your PC, PC Viewer.

1. Program for converting /i-dataLink SD card data to CSV (Excel) readable format. PC Only.
2. Cooke /i-dataLink manual in pdf format.

/i Technology Reference Manual
For the /i system user to understand how to talk to the lens directly. This manual contains the communications protocol of the /i system.
1. Cooke /i v2.29 Protocols in pdf format.

http://www.cookeoptics.com/cooke.nsf/downloads/Cooke_i_Communications_Protocols_-_v2.29.pdf

"Our goal is to provide the filmmaking industry with a digital open standard to ensure metadata compatibility from acquisition through post production."

Italics mine.

So it took me less than sixty seconds to get to the Open Standard downloadable i/data protocol. I assume Birger was able do the same.

 

[Curran Giddens]

So it took me less than sixty seconds to get to the Open Standard downloadable i/data protocol. I assume Birger was able do the same.

Ok. I downloaded the pdf and on the first page is says:

"The use of any of Cooke Optics’ intellectual property is strictly forbidden
without its prior written consent."

 

[Curran Giddens]

I admit that I haven't really followed the Birger thread and I don't want to take sides.

I do remember that originally, in order to install the Birger mount, you had to fold and then tuck the idata cable into a slot in the mount to get it out of the way. But now that cable is being used, not tucked away like it was when the mount was approved.

 

[Joe Taylor]

When plugged into the mount, much of the i-data cable still needs to tucked into that slot, and this is actually a pretty tricky operation since the cable can easily get sandwiched and smashed if caught between the mount and the body.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Ok. I downloaded the pdf and on the first page is says:

"The use of any of Cooke Optics’ intellectual property is strictly forbidden
without its prior written consent."

I don't know if Birger has that or not but it doesn't sound like they are at all restrictive. I suspect if you just send them an email and ask they say okay. But the main point is it pretty clearly isn't infringing RED.

I admit that I haven't really followed the Birger thread and I don't want to take sides.

I do remember that originally, in order to install the Birger mount, you had to fold and then tuck the idata cable into a slot in the mount to get it out of the way. But now that cable is being used, not tucked away like it was when the mount was approved.

If you ever used a RED Nikon mount you know that either way is better than what you have to do to use the Nikon, and the way it is connected now is much better/more secure than having it in the adjuster channel (al a nikon mount) or tucked away. And I'm not sure but I think the i/data connector was on the Birger mount that was approved because I and Jay Kelley got one about that same time, and IIRC Jarred saw and commented positively about Jay's video that showed it installed and used.

We're getting into areas that I really don't recall exactly but WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? We're talking something that is minimally invasive (if it is at all) and provides tremendous utility and cost effective capability to a large number of RED customers - far beyond what RED offers.

This whole situation seems to be diametrically opposed to what I THOUGHT RED was SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT: Revolution; Customer Orientation, taking new and disruptive technology and bringing it together to create the most bang for the buck; honest and constructive communication...

And now I have to start thinking of Jay's post:

I have to say, this is a very painful subject. Most people do not speak their minds about this issue out of fear.

This is a horrible thing, it's not what we're supposed to be about here.

Because I do fear that my saying things will cause me trouble down the road even though I have always tried to be fair, reasoned, and constructive. So now I better step away ....

 

[Joel Kaye]

I admit that I haven't really followed the Birger thread and I don't want to take sides.

I do remember that originally, in order to install the Birger mount, you had to fold and then tuck the idata cable into a slot in the mount to get it out of the way. But now that cable is being used, not tucked away like it was when the mount was approved.

The folding and tucking part is the same. I have followed it and I don't even have a clear memory. I'm pretty sure the very first Birger's had a slot for RED's i/data cable but maybe my memory might be wrong on that.

I do know he had stated from the beginning that he would support i/data and that was discussed online here. So the idea of supporting of i/data itself shouldn't be the issue. The implementation may have changed without notice.

In the in end RED's throwing the party here. They have a business to run and they are going to call the shots. Any 3rd party has to give that considerable respect that and operate accordingly.

 

[Curran Giddens]

This whole situation seems to be diametrically opposed to what I THOUGHT RED was SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT: Revolution; Customer Orientation, taking new and disruptive technology and bringing it together to create the most bang for the buck; honest and constructive communication...

Yeah, I hear ya. If Red wants to go the proprietary route with things like lens mounts and media on the new cameras then fine. Considering everything else that Red is doing in terms of bang for the buck, generous trade in offers, etc., I don't mind going along with it.

And now I have to start thinking of Jay's post:

Because I do fear that my saying things will cause me trouble down the road even though I have always tried to be fair, reasoned, and constructive. So now I better step away ....

Good idea. :leaving:

 

[Michael Hastings]

Good idea. :leaving:

You're right, time to start drinking a little early ... (and I'm not much of a drinker)

Here's a champagne toast to all of the REDUSERs that make this a great place to spend too much time:

Jim
Jarred
Kelly
Stuart
Graeme
Ted
Erik (and his wife and baby)
Jay
Frazier
Mark
Ken
Johnny
Amund
David G
David M
Tom L
Jason
Evin
Jeff
Gibby
Mitch
Michael B.
Steve
Brook
Ian
Mark T
Pawel
Mitch
Curt
Matt
Rudi
Dan H
Dan B
Shawn

and too many more to remember offhand ...

 

[Mitch Gross]

Hey, I'm listed twice! Thanks!

And having spoken privately to certain parties (sometimes I can really find myself in interesting spots), I have to say that there appears to be much that has not ben publicly stated on this forum.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Hey, I'm listed twice! Thanks!

Sometimes you have to double down (or I'm just getting senile)

And having spoken privately to certain parties (sometimes I can really find myself in interesting spots), I have to say that there appears to be much that has not ben publicly stated on this forum.

And yes there is quite a bit that hasn't been public - including a fair amount of frustration feedback I hear from those that are more discreet (and probably more sensible) than I am.

 

[Jarred Land]

This whole situation seems to be diametrically opposed to what I THOUGHT RED was SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT: Revolution; Customer Orientation, taking new and disruptive technology and bringing it together to create the most bang for the buck; honest and constructive communication...

What a wonderful pile of bullshit to wake up and read the first day of the year

Jay Kelly was right. some people should just shut the hell up. If you don't like what we are doing.. go buy another camera.

 

[Paolo Tinari]

So now I better step away ....

Ups, too late...

 

[Jarred Land]

Ups, too late...

I'd say... i know who is not going to be getting any favors from us anytime soon

Im so tired of the "gimme gimme gimme boo hoo" crap. It's like sitting in a room with a bunch of 2 year olds.