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House pisses me off

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Rob Ruffo

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I don't get it? Is that DOP blind? Can he not see how soft these )&%# DSLRs look in HD!?

This angers me. Just yesterday an agency art director said she wanted us to use a 5D because it was "the cool, in approach". So aliasing is in style now? Is moire what all the hip DJs, Russian models and Berlin performance artists are into? Yeah, cool kids hate true high resolution - that's so last year.

Now this House thing makes winning arguments harder. I need to win these arguments, because I cannot rent out a Red kit for free to productions as I might my 5D. (I have baseplates that cost more than my 5D, which I bought because I love it as a STILLS camera). I also HATE that awful aliased low res over-compressed look the 5D gives me. It's no fun to shoot crap.

My feeling is that House DOP got paid big time by Canon. Otherwise it makes no sense, no sense at all.

Here's my theory of the whole phenomenon. There are lots and lots of amateurs out there. They know almost nothing about cinematography, have no real eye, etc. To them, the 5D looks "movie-like". This band of morons is a HUGE market to sell accessories to like follow-focuses made from RC car gears. Now we have a motivated group to promote the idea that its a great solution: all the mugs who sell cheap-crap accessories at high prices.

The other motivated group are the no-budget-no-connections filmmakers themselves. It's very appealing for them to think that their tool is "almost as good as 35mm film", the preposterous claim that is the subtext of the Zacuto shoot-out recently. They will scream and shout and jump all about if you try to tell them that is not true, because if that is not true it means that their pipe-dream of shooting a movie for $700 and having it look as good as Hollywood feature is not realistic (it's not realistic for a number of other reasons as well, but no room to go into those here). They don't want to hear that, especially since most of them deep down, know it's true. More motivated sellers of the 5D lie.

Then of course, we have Canon. Video shooters, even wedding guys, have deeper pockets than photo guys. L Glass, compared to dedicated video lenses, is essentially free. What an awesome market for Canon. Thus the third pillar of the trifecta of 5D Lie Salesmen.

This lie is more easily sold because most of what we see from that camera we see hyper-compressed on the web, at a highly blurred 720p or lower, with all the shots that didn't (can't) work - like bricks in focus, high-contrast wrinkles, beards, etc. etc. edited out. No one stops to think that a resolved 550p or so, as streaming web video is commonly capable of, is as good as the footage will EVER look, unlike footage from other real film and video cams, which would look FAR BETTER on HD cable or blu-ray.

There are so many salesmen that a fellow DOP was sitting with me the other night and said "Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe aliasing and low resolution are no big deal." No. It's important we realize that successfully brainwashing people with a statement does not make it true.

The fact is, the 5D hurts the business in many ways. It is a great student camera, like my old Bolex was, but I think it is destructive to our trade if we say we can shoot a major network show on a modern-day Bolex.

We need to more aggressively and shamelessly say that good tools and of course good talent are not cheap, and that standards must always remain high in all ways. Otherwise pro and amateur will be blended together as one low standard, and film schools may as well close.
 
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All that we have yet to learn and discover - from an individual or collective viewpoint and shifting over time. You cannot learn what you already 'know' - although you may have to unlearn some things, and you cannot discover something you've already found - although you may occasionally rediscover something you've misplaced or forgotten.

Edit: Marlys Witte's definition of "Ignorance"
 
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All that we have yet to learn and discover - from an individual or collective viewpoint and shifting over time. You cannot learn what you already 'know' - although you may have to unlearn some things, and you cannot discover something you've already found - although you may occasionally rediscover something you've misplaced or forgotten.

??????????????
 
Maybe the DP wants a challenge. Maybe he wants to see how good he is, and make the 5D look awesome. Next weeks episode he'll shoot in HDV, then the season finale will be shot on VHS with in camera editing!
 
Maybe the DP wants a challenge. Maybe he wants to see how good he is, and make the 5D look awesome. Next weeks episode he'll shoot in HDV, then the season finale will be shot on VHS with in camera editing!

That's funny.
 
??????????????

Marlys Witte's definition of "Ignorance"

The best word to describe all people using these highly compressed “formats”.
 
The fact is, the 5D hurts the business in many ways. It is a great student camera, like my old Bolex was, but I think it is destructive to our trade if we say we can shoot a major network show on a modern-day Bolex.

A Bolex is far superior to a 5D for image quality and as a practical production camera.
 
It's just starting

It's just starting

Welcome to the brave new world of cinematography!!!
 
On the bright side (always look on the bright side of life)...

...if the episode looks like donkey ass and has all kinds of aliasing issues, the codec fails apart in post, this could just be the deathblow for the 5D as a serious pro format. Then no studio would dare touch a vDSLR again.
 
Welcome to the brave new world of cinematography!!!

Brave?????

Anyways, here there is a aproved list of cameras for HD productions from NatGeo. This list is from March 2009. Will be interesting to see the same list after the 2010 update.
Anyone have a list of a different network?

16.0 NGC Approved List of HD Primary Shooting Cameras
For 1080i Productions: (Minimum of 2 million pixels)
Thompson Phantom v12
Red Camera
Sony HDW-F900R / F950
Sony F23
Sony HDW790 / 730S
Sony PDW700 (1920 x 1080 @ 50 Mb/s)
Sony HDC-1500
Panasonic AJ-HPX3000 (shoots 1080 only)
Panasonic AJ-HDX900
For 720p Productions: (Minimum of 1 million pixels)
Panasonic Varicam AJ -HDC27FP
Panasonic Varicam AJ-HDX900

NGC Approved List of HD Secondary Shooting Cameras
* Note – Secondary cameras are to be used for tight or confined spaces or situations that pose a hazard to your full sized production camera. Use of footage
captured with these cameras must not exceed 20% of the overall production. Any percentage over this amount must be approved by EP’s and Network
Operations.
Sony EX1 & EX3 – (1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 - HQ Mode @ 35 MB/s)
Panasonic AG-HPX500 – both 1080i and 720p
Panasonic AJ-HPX2000 – both 1080i and 720p

Non-Approved HD Cameras:
Sony HVRZ1U / Sony HVRV1U / Sony HVRZ7U
Anything built on the HDV platform
 
You probably know what I think. However, I watch House every week and have for a long time. I'll give this episode the benefit of the doubt and watch it with an open mind. If it doesn't deter from the story, doesn't change the unique tone or style of the show, then I really don't care what it was shot on. However, if the shows feels different (in a bad way) or if the actors seem distracted, I'll know it. I'm not one of those that think a better image always tells a better story.

I do think the image "affects" the story just like a look or a filter, lighting choices and many other factors. Look, the debate is over as to the "quality" of the 5DM2 image compared to RED MX or FILM. It's like comparing iPhone Video to a Sony CineAlta. Perhaps now the debate should switch to how a particular camera/sensor choice affects the story, tone, tempo or style of any particular story.

Hopefully we are all brave enough to use our iPhone 3GS's, even for something commercial, if it would help us tell a better story. Life isn't always crystal clear, sharp or vibrant. A video I took of my 8-month old daughter last week with my iPhone 3GS and processed with Vintage Video Maker for a 2X speed, scratchy 20's silent film look is bar-none the best "story" I've ever shot of her including the RED and 5DM2 footage. It's the one video my entire family raved about. Go figure that out.

Thoughts?

-michael zaletel
 
It's pretty ironic that you speak about the 5D the same way that a film or F35 fan would talk about Red. Not that I agree with them either.

The idea that good tools and good talent some how go together is pretty absurd. I can give you many examples of great talents using cheap tools and making great films. Also the notion that the price of a camera has any correlation to quality is fast becoming a thing of the past thanks to Moore's law.

When you consider that RedUser is a descendant of DVXUser, it's kind of silly that you would even post this here. I fail to see the difference between a 5D and something like an EX3 other than that the depth of field is painfully shallow, the camera shoots H264 instead of HDV, and the 5D is a lot harder to use. This trend isn't really something new. One of my favorite movies "Festen" was shot on a cheap Sony Digital Camcorder by one of our greatest DPs Anthony Dodd Mantel. Speaking as someone who's career has run a pretty wide spectrum of budgets, I can say pretty clearly that how much money you spend has very little to do with the quality of your final product. If that was the case than "The Room" would have been one of the best indy movies to come out that year.

Finally here's a list of ridiculously elitist things from your above post:
"There are lots and lots of amateurs out there." and we only have three more shotgun shells!!
"the no-budget-no-connections filmmakers" Wow dude.
"their pipe-dream of shooting a movie for $700 and having it look as good as Hollywood feature is not realistic" What's that got to do with you.
"I think it is destructive to our trade if we say we can shoot a major network show on a modern-day Bolex." Oh god the irony.

Sorry to be so combative. I just think your POV is not very constructive and has very little to do with the actual craft of cinematography that you hope to defend.

IBloom
 
I find this thread interesting, frustrating and almost don't care to comment. Accept, I own both the 5D and RED ONE as tools in my toolkit. Here's what I find interesting, I do quite a bit of smaller local commercials, corporate work and feature film work. For my local productions which I have smaller budgets (up to 10K) I have smaller crews sometimes just 3-5 of us and although I absolutely agree the image quality of my RED is far superior I enjoy shooting with the 5D more. Why? It allows me to move quicker, set up dynamic shots on a small lightweight pocket dolly I can move from spot to spot quicker and as long as my end deliverable isn't 1080p (which often it's not in these smaller shoots) the footage actually cuts pretty well. So well in fact I bet I could show you a few examples that are RED/5D intercut that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
For me, If the 5D allows me to get shots that I otherwise wouldn't be able to acheive with the weight and size of the RED than it's a nice companion.
I guess what's frustrating about posts like these is there doesn't need to be a this camera versus that one because of this or that. Choose what's best for you and let that be it. If that happens to be RED great. I like both for different reasons in different shooting scenarios. I love RED as much as the next but just because I chose to purchase their camera doesn't mean I'm going to start disliking and knocking other great tools. In fact the more I hear members of RED putting down other cameras the more I grow out of love with the original company that was just a few years back defending themselves from a lot people that made very valid comments about the stability issues of their very own camera system they were banking on making them what they are today. It's just not necessary. I guess that's how I feel about this thread.
 
It's pretty ironic that you speak about the 5D the same way that a film or F35 fan would talk about Red. Not that I agree with them either.

The idea that good tools and good talent some how go together is pretty absurd. I can give you many examples of great talents using cheap tools and making great films. Also the notion that the price of a camera has any correlation to quality is fast becoming a thing of the past thanks to Moore's law.

When you consider that RedUser is a descendant of DVXUser, it's kind of silly that you would even post this here. I fail to see the difference between a 5D and something like an EX3 other than that the depth of field is painfully shallow, the camera shoots H264 instead of HDV, and the 5D is a lot harder to use. This trend isn't really something new. One of my favorite movies "Festen" was shot on a cheap Sony Digital Camcorder by one of our greatest DPs Anthony Dodd Mantel. Speaking as someone who's career has run a pretty wide spectrum of budgets, I can say pretty clearly that how much money you spend has very little to do with the quality of your final product. If that was the case than "The Room" would have been one of the best indy movies to come out that year.

Finally here's a list of ridiculously elitist things from your above post:
"There are lots and lots of amateurs out there." and we only have three more shotgun shells!!
"the no-budget-no-connections filmmakers" Wow dude.
"their pipe-dream of shooting a movie for $700 and having it look as good as Hollywood feature is not realistic" What's that got to do with you.
"I think it is destructive to our trade if we say we can shoot a major network show on a modern-day Bolex." Oh god the irony.

Sorry to be so combative. I just think your POV is not very constructive and has very little to do with the actual craft of cinematography that you hope to defend.

IBloom

I was once a no-budget-no-connections filmmaker, and I could still use more money and more connections, so could we all.

My current most time-involving project is extremely low-budget, done out of passion for the material. We are shooting it on an EX3, bare & + adapter. Why? Because there is a difference. It gives a higher resolution result, acceptable to Discovery, NatGeo, etc. It looks better, sharper grades better. When we have more money we will use a Red. If you can't see a difference, see an optometrist or get a better monitor or go to school or something.

That said, I was talking about House. Not low-budget work. It doesn't piss me off that people with no money do what they gotta do. I too have seen great films shot on VHS cams, (albeit mostly bad ones). The good ones would have been much better and garnered a bigger audience if they had used better tools all-around. People talk about the story being the important thing, and I agree, but I fail to see how good cinematography created with a great camera takes away from a story. On the contrary, it adds to it.

Besides, what is the point of making a comment like that on a technical site? Taken to an extreme, it would mean that all the information here has no value.

It pisses me off that major network, who could certainly afford a few Reds, would use substandard tools. It pisses me off that national campaign art director would suggest that we use a 5D, when the set runs at 50K a day, and media buys will be who knows how much, because she has been misinformed by a bunch of people with various motives for misinformation. That's what pisses me off.

Also, don't kid yourself. Cinematography is a technical craft, and tool choice is an important part of that. If you want to do something in the business that is purely idea-based, then switch to acting or scriptwriting. They are extremely important jobs, arguably more important than any other, and it doesn't matter what kind of word processor you use.

The 35mm comparison has no validity here. Red users, even Red themselves, admitted the shortcomings of Red vs. film, and the benefits, and the choice between Red and film has always been a reasonable, studied and informed one, because it is most often made by people with training and experience. now with MX, the benefits of film are much less, and that too is being discussed intelligently.
 
I find this thread interesting, frustrating and almost don't care to comment. Accept, I own both the 5D and RED ONE as tools in my toolkit. Here's what I find interesting, I do quite a bit of smaller local commercials, corporate work and feature film work. For my local productions which I have smaller budgets (up to 10K) I have smaller crews sometimes just 3-5 of us and although I absolutely agree the image quality of my RED is far superior I enjoy shooting with the 5D more. Why? It allows me to move quicker, set up dynamic shots on a small lightweight pocket dolly I can move from spot to spot quicker and as long as my end deliverable isn't 1080p (which often it's not in these smaller shoots) the footage actually cuts pretty well. So well in fact I bet I could show you a few examples that are RED/5D intercut that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
For me, If the 5D allows me to get shots that I otherwise wouldn't be able to acheive with the weight and size of the RED than it's a nice companion.
I guess what's frustrating about posts like these is there doesn't need to be a this camera versus that one because of this or that. Choose what's best for you and let that be it. If that happens to be RED great. I like both for different reasons in different shooting scenarios. I love RED as much as the next but just because I chose to purchase their camera doesn't mean I'm going to start disliking and knocking other great tools. In fact the more I hear members of RED putting down other cameras the more I grow out of love with the original company that was just a few years back defending themselves from a lot people that made very valid comments about the stability issues of their very own camera system they were banking on making them what they are today. It's just not necessary. I guess that's how I feel about this thread.

The reason I do this (I own a 5D too) is not to bash anybody. Misinformation and propaganda have created a real problem in our clientele. It is also a problem for people like Sony and Panasonic who might be given the impression that things like a proper low pass filter are not important, so maybe tell the bean counters to save $7 a unit and skip it. I agree, for SD output, the 5D is fine (unless, of course you shoot buildings or certain other things in focus). But for HD it is not (and those of you who say 1080i is not 1080p, please look up the fact that 1080i is simply a way of delivering 1080p - it is 1080p )

I have great respect for anyone learning this craft and trying to do whatever the indy route.
 
Brave?????

Anyways, here there is a aproved list of cameras for HD productions from NatGeo. This list is from March 2009. Will be interesting to see the same list after the 2010 update.
Anyone have a list of a different network?

16.0 NGC Approved List of HD Primary Shooting Cameras
For 1080i Productions: (Minimum of 2 million pixels)
�� Thompson Phantom v12
�� Red Camera
�� Sony HDW-F900R / F950
�� Sony F23
�� Sony HDW790 / 730S
�� Sony PDW700 (1920 x 1080 @ 50 Mb/s)
�� Sony HDC-1500
�� Panasonic AJ-HPX3000 (shoots 1080 only)
�� Panasonic AJ-HDX900
For 720p Productions: (Minimum of 1 million pixels)
�� Panasonic Varicam AJ -HDC27FP
�� Panasonic Varicam AJ-HDX900

NGC Approved List of HD Secondary Shooting Cameras
* Note – Secondary cameras are to be used for tight or confined spaces or situations that pose a hazard to your full sized production camera. Use of footage
captured with these cameras must not exceed 20% of the overall production. Any percentage over this amount must be approved by EP’s and Network
Operations.
�� Sony EX1 & EX3 – (1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 - HQ Mode @ 35 MB/s)
�� Panasonic AG-HPX500 – both 1080i and 720p
�� Panasonic AJ-HPX2000 – both 1080i and 720p

Non-Approved HD Cameras:
�� Sony HVRZ1U / Sony HVRV1U / Sony HVRZ7U
�� Anything built on the HDV platform

They're pretty slack on the EX1 20% rule. Lots of shows on these networks are 100%. Less slack on the hpx500/2000 because 1080i does not look Ok on progressive monitors. Use a nanoflash (and/or make a great show) and you get zero discussion/arguments with Ex1/3.
 
That said, I was talking about House. Not low-budget work. It doesn't piss me off that people with no money do what they gotta do. I too have seen great films shot on VHS cams, (albeit mostly bad ones). The good ones would have been much better and garnered a bigger audience if they had used better tools all-around. People talk about the story being the important thing, and I agree, but I fail to see how good cinematography created with a great camera takes away from a story. On the contrary, it adds to it....It pisses me off that major network, who could certainly afford a few Reds, would use substandard tools. It pisses me off that national campaign art director would suggest that we use a 5D, when the set runs at 50K a day, and media buys will be who knows how much, because she has been misinformed by a bunch of people with various motives for misinformation. That's what pisses me off.

One should always know the facts before one jumps to conclusions. Here are some facts you might want to know.

According to what I've been told, this particular episode of "House" was written to take place in a collapsed building. The production wanted to construct a set with a practical collapsed ceiling both for realism and to help the cast feel what they were supposed to be going through. "House" is shot on 35mm film, but with the plans for the set, this became almost physically impossible. The rather tiny Canon cameras presented an opportunity not only to shoot in cramped quarters, but to do it with fewer lighting units than would normally be used, and to use multiple cameras when needed. In other words, the circumstances of the production required new approaches, and the Canon cameras represented one approach that could help solve the problem. The fact that it also presented an opportunity for some experimentation was a secondary attraction, but the reason for the approach was based on the productions particular physical circumstances.

Rather than assuming that nobody cares about image quality, rather than assume that this was some inside deal with Canon, and rather than get pissed off, one should seek out facts. And, probably, watch the results and judge the success or failure based on that.
 
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