Yannick Hagman
Well-known member
David Mullen suggests a PAR in his "ask him anything". Gives you more punch.
Welcome to our community
Be a part of something great, join today!
HMI... Any cheap alternatives?
- Thread starter Eddie
- Start date
Jason Sinclair
Well-known member
I've got an opportunity to buy some magnetic ballast HMI's Arri 6k, 2.5k and some smaller ones. prices seem reasonable (nothing over $5k). Should i even consider???
Gary Stone
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2007
- Messages
- 266
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
i was thinking of night exteriors. just curious if they would work...
- Banned
- #24
Night exteriors where there's not much to motivate light except the moonlight typically have a hard back light and soft side light. (I think.) Ideally, you'd want two big HMIs--one diffused, one undiffused; the size depends on the location, the framing, and what stop you want to shoot. Also, if it's the city at night or something where there's already motivated sources you can get by with a lot less but the woods or something is trickier.
On a super low budget you might be able to get by with a single HMI at a 3/4 angle and then some cheap fill like fluorescents or photo floods. I did this once and it worked okay but we used a 575w HMI for a small area (20X20 feet?) and needed to use +6db gain on an hvx and were still way underexposed. You would need more light than that for the same area with the red unless you want to shoot at f2 or something and have no depth of focus. You also need to back the light up pretty far to get it even enough, so it takes more than you'd think.
For night exteriors, you'll probably want at least one HMI bare minimum, more depending on the nature of the scene and how you shoot it.
James Press
Well-known member
We just fitted out our studio with Cool Lights (fluorescent banks; soft boxes; and HMIs) and they are great (disclaimer: we're shooting with Canon XHG1s until our Reds arrive in the coming weeks, when I'll post some shots under lights.). They're soooo much cheaper than anything else and the quality is excellent. The owner, Richard Andrewski, knows his stuff--AND he's an early reservation Red owner.
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Hi James, that was quite a project wasn't it? James got a good mix of a lot of our different products for his studio. I see lots of different thoughts in this thread, many different directions talking about lots of different technologies. I'll just cover a few of them in 3 main areas: HMI/CDM, Fluorescent and LED.
HMI and CDM
James was the first to get our new prototype 70w Ceramic Discharge Metalhalide (CDM) ballast and 6000K bulb. This is a super efficient hard light, with great throw and James will be using them mostly for back / rim lighting in his studio. We'll be packaging that in a 300w compact fresnel body (Arri clone) for substitute where you'd use a 300w fresnel (and only draws 70w). This follows in the footsteps of our already well-accepted and appreciated 150w CDM fresnel:
http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-cool-lights-fresnel-p-63.html
We're working on a 250w CDM model too that would replace a 1000w fresnel for only drawing 250w. We hope both of the new models will be out sometime in the fall.
Its important to note, that the Alzo solution and our "CDM" fresnels as we call them, are not real HMIs because they don't use HMI brand bulbs. HMI doesn't mean anything other than it being an Osram trademark. HMI is a quartz metal halide bulb (older technology metal halide) with certain characteristics that people have come to expect. Any solution which doesn't have an Osram brand HMI bulb in it can't really be called an HMI if you want to be correct. Even though GE, Philips and others make an Osram HMI compatible bulb, its not technically an "HMI" bulb but rather an "HMI compatible bulb" and the fixture is never an "HMI" but rather a metal halide fixture. Of course, Osram doesn't care and is glad everyone calls it an "HMI"!
I wrote an article in my blog about metal halide, what HMI is, etc. last year which became an entire series on how to convert an old fresnel to metal halide. We later started coming out with our own offerings.
We separate our metal halide into two lines: CDM and HMI which is more technically correct and less misleading than something like the Alzo solution which claims to be "HMI" but is nothing more than a commercial quartz cold start metal halide bulb. HMI denotes a particular type of quartz metal halide bulb which we can expect to have certain characteristics:
- First and foremost--Hot restart feature (can relight instantly after turning off without waiting for it to cool down). This is not just the bulb though, it also requires a ballast and ignitor that is hot restart capable.
- 6000K color temperature and CRI of 85 or above. Osram standardized on 6000K but many often refer to it as 5600K which is not correct. You never find this kind of bulb in lower color temperatures (like 3200K for instance) even though it should be possible.
- Life is in the range of 750 hours. Yes, there's a price for hot restart which is tough on the entire system from bulb to ballast. The ignition pulse is very stressful.
- "Quartz" metal halide which is the oldest type of metal halide
A CDM bulb has the following characteristics:
- Color temperature and CRI can be many different things--anything from 3000K to 10000K and CRI from 60 to 90. We offer our CDM 150 fresnel with a choice of 3000K ceramic or 5400K quartz color temperatures.
- Only cold start which means you have to let the bulb cool down for 5 minutes before you can relight.
- Life is typically in the 6000 to 10000 hour range thanks to the more advanced ceramic chamber inside.
Regular commercial quartz metal halide has similar characteristics as CDM but life is typically a bit lower in the 2000 hour range. The main different is the chamber inside is made of quartz and not ceramic material.
In our HMI line (that is, the fixtures which really use HMI or compatible bulbs), we currently have made 575w low cost fresnels and another model 575w which uses our more expensive 575/1200w ballast. A few 1200w fresnels in both cold and hot start variations and our 1200w HMI par which is in stock now as are the CDM 150 fresnels but they are all going fast. For any given wattage, a par will always have more output than a fresnel. Thanks to the more efficient parabolic reflector and bulb in the middle configuration. Anyway, as far as I know, no one else in the USA is lowering the cost of real HMI like we are. And no one else is giving you the CDM solutions in a real fresnel like we are at this price point.
http://www.coollights.biz/-c-28_29.html
We only use electronic ballasts on all these products. We felt that the electronic ballasts give most of what people really want. Higher light output than an equivalent magnetic ballast, flicker free operation, etc. The main drawback will be a bit more "head" noise where the bulb is driven at such a high frequency that there is a slight hum. Most people that want to own their own solution (rather than continuing to rent) can work around this--mainly by insuring your mic is not near the light but near the subject. Audio bandpass filter solutions in your editor are another solution. When you need total silent operation and can live with limited frame rates or shutter speeds, a magnetic ballast will do that. This head noise phenomenon is only in our HMI lines. The CDM lines have no head noise. And there is no fan in our CDM 150 ballast either.
FLUORESCENT
In our fluorescent lines, we separate into studio and portable. The main differences will be in weight and build. The photometrics are about the same due to the fact that both lines use the same ballasts and bulbs. These are all high frequency driven solutions which are completely silent and flicker free. We have hundreds of these out there now and they are well thought of and highly economical.
Our portables are an actual improvement over other fluorescent location fixtures like the Diva or the Lowel Caselite. They have a hard shell polycarbonate corrugated plastic construction which protects the ballast, sockets and reflectors better than something like the Diva but still manages to weigh less than an equivalent Diva. Plus, we have a 655 version which no one else has in a location fixture. We use a lollipop type mounting on the back of these and they can swivel 360 degrees and any angle.
The studio models use a conventional yoke and can only mount horizontally and angle adjust. James has quite a few of our CL-455 studio models and this is his primary lighting with the CDM 70's being the back/rim lighting.
http://www.coollights.biz/cl455-cool-lights-watt-fluorescent-video-soft-light-p-31.html
We also have the well-liked 200w 8U bulb in a kit we call the CL-SFT1 Kit. James has a few of those for some extra lighting.
5600K bulb: http://www.coollights.biz/cl20056-cool-lights-200w-5600k-high-softbox-bulb-p-83.html
Kits: http://www.coollights.biz/-c-39.html
Its also available in 3200K as well and both are color correct and high CRI whereas many of the "grow" light solutions that use the same bulb are not reliable in that sense.
LED
Despite a lot of the hype, LEDs won't be replacing HMI or Fluorescent anytime soon. You simply wouldn't be able to afford enough LEDs to replace a 1200w HMI for instance and when it comes to cyc lighting (green screens for instance), fluorescent will be better and more economical for that. Even if you did get enough LEDs to equal the intensity of a 1200w HMI (or 575w for that matter), the surface area emanating light would be much larger and the effect would not be the same.
Yes, LEDs do have their special uses though and we will have some LED fixtures in the fall. We recently had a design thread on DVXUser and many participated in the design of that model.
One place where LEDs really excel is when you use a small degree beam angle LED in a panel (like 15 degree to 25 degree), you can get the equivalent of a 500w or 600w tungsten fresnel with great throw thanks to the concentration of all light emanating from the lens and not so much wasted 360 degrees around the bulb like with a tungsten or metal halide bulb. If you just compare lumen output between LEDs and these other bulbs you can easily believe that the LED is quite a bit weaker. The reason the lumen rating is not as relevant is the lens configuration and how it concentrates light so efficiently out of the top of the LED. Its not totally the equivalent though because the shadows are kind of weird. So while it is pretty hard light, its not as hard as a tungsten or metal halide/HMI fresnel. An LED panel is a strange cross between a hard and soft light with some of the characteristics of both.
Our LED panel will be square, about 10.5" x 10.5" with the actual panel of LEDs being about 10" x 10" and have 600 LEDs (24 rows of 25). Light output is about the equivalent of a 600w fresnel. Voltage will be 12VDC and could be either a battery or our external 12VDC power supply. Wattage draw will be about 40w.
We have other LED models in the works but the 600 will be first. Target intro price will be in the $250 range and then going up to $350 after intro period.
One last note. All our products work on anything from 100v to 250v 50 or 60 hertz (with exception of the 200w 8U CFL bulb which is either 110v or 220v only) and we don't charge extra for that as many like Kino Flo do.
HMI and CDM
James was the first to get our new prototype 70w Ceramic Discharge Metalhalide (CDM) ballast and 6000K bulb. This is a super efficient hard light, with great throw and James will be using them mostly for back / rim lighting in his studio. We'll be packaging that in a 300w compact fresnel body (Arri clone) for substitute where you'd use a 300w fresnel (and only draws 70w). This follows in the footsteps of our already well-accepted and appreciated 150w CDM fresnel:
http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-cool-lights-fresnel-p-63.html
We're working on a 250w CDM model too that would replace a 1000w fresnel for only drawing 250w. We hope both of the new models will be out sometime in the fall.
Its important to note, that the Alzo solution and our "CDM" fresnels as we call them, are not real HMIs because they don't use HMI brand bulbs. HMI doesn't mean anything other than it being an Osram trademark. HMI is a quartz metal halide bulb (older technology metal halide) with certain characteristics that people have come to expect. Any solution which doesn't have an Osram brand HMI bulb in it can't really be called an HMI if you want to be correct. Even though GE, Philips and others make an Osram HMI compatible bulb, its not technically an "HMI" bulb but rather an "HMI compatible bulb" and the fixture is never an "HMI" but rather a metal halide fixture. Of course, Osram doesn't care and is glad everyone calls it an "HMI"!
I wrote an article in my blog about metal halide, what HMI is, etc. last year which became an entire series on how to convert an old fresnel to metal halide. We later started coming out with our own offerings.
We separate our metal halide into two lines: CDM and HMI which is more technically correct and less misleading than something like the Alzo solution which claims to be "HMI" but is nothing more than a commercial quartz cold start metal halide bulb. HMI denotes a particular type of quartz metal halide bulb which we can expect to have certain characteristics:
- First and foremost--Hot restart feature (can relight instantly after turning off without waiting for it to cool down). This is not just the bulb though, it also requires a ballast and ignitor that is hot restart capable.
- 6000K color temperature and CRI of 85 or above. Osram standardized on 6000K but many often refer to it as 5600K which is not correct. You never find this kind of bulb in lower color temperatures (like 3200K for instance) even though it should be possible.
- Life is in the range of 750 hours. Yes, there's a price for hot restart which is tough on the entire system from bulb to ballast. The ignition pulse is very stressful.
- "Quartz" metal halide which is the oldest type of metal halide
A CDM bulb has the following characteristics:
- Color temperature and CRI can be many different things--anything from 3000K to 10000K and CRI from 60 to 90. We offer our CDM 150 fresnel with a choice of 3000K ceramic or 5400K quartz color temperatures.
- Only cold start which means you have to let the bulb cool down for 5 minutes before you can relight.
- Life is typically in the 6000 to 10000 hour range thanks to the more advanced ceramic chamber inside.
Regular commercial quartz metal halide has similar characteristics as CDM but life is typically a bit lower in the 2000 hour range. The main different is the chamber inside is made of quartz and not ceramic material.
In our HMI line (that is, the fixtures which really use HMI or compatible bulbs), we currently have made 575w low cost fresnels and another model 575w which uses our more expensive 575/1200w ballast. A few 1200w fresnels in both cold and hot start variations and our 1200w HMI par which is in stock now as are the CDM 150 fresnels but they are all going fast. For any given wattage, a par will always have more output than a fresnel. Thanks to the more efficient parabolic reflector and bulb in the middle configuration. Anyway, as far as I know, no one else in the USA is lowering the cost of real HMI like we are. And no one else is giving you the CDM solutions in a real fresnel like we are at this price point.
http://www.coollights.biz/-c-28_29.html
We only use electronic ballasts on all these products. We felt that the electronic ballasts give most of what people really want. Higher light output than an equivalent magnetic ballast, flicker free operation, etc. The main drawback will be a bit more "head" noise where the bulb is driven at such a high frequency that there is a slight hum. Most people that want to own their own solution (rather than continuing to rent) can work around this--mainly by insuring your mic is not near the light but near the subject. Audio bandpass filter solutions in your editor are another solution. When you need total silent operation and can live with limited frame rates or shutter speeds, a magnetic ballast will do that. This head noise phenomenon is only in our HMI lines. The CDM lines have no head noise. And there is no fan in our CDM 150 ballast either.
FLUORESCENT
In our fluorescent lines, we separate into studio and portable. The main differences will be in weight and build. The photometrics are about the same due to the fact that both lines use the same ballasts and bulbs. These are all high frequency driven solutions which are completely silent and flicker free. We have hundreds of these out there now and they are well thought of and highly economical.
Our portables are an actual improvement over other fluorescent location fixtures like the Diva or the Lowel Caselite. They have a hard shell polycarbonate corrugated plastic construction which protects the ballast, sockets and reflectors better than something like the Diva but still manages to weigh less than an equivalent Diva. Plus, we have a 655 version which no one else has in a location fixture. We use a lollipop type mounting on the back of these and they can swivel 360 degrees and any angle.
The studio models use a conventional yoke and can only mount horizontally and angle adjust. James has quite a few of our CL-455 studio models and this is his primary lighting with the CDM 70's being the back/rim lighting.
http://www.coollights.biz/cl455-cool-lights-watt-fluorescent-video-soft-light-p-31.html
We also have the well-liked 200w 8U bulb in a kit we call the CL-SFT1 Kit. James has a few of those for some extra lighting.
5600K bulb: http://www.coollights.biz/cl20056-cool-lights-200w-5600k-high-softbox-bulb-p-83.html
Kits: http://www.coollights.biz/-c-39.html
Its also available in 3200K as well and both are color correct and high CRI whereas many of the "grow" light solutions that use the same bulb are not reliable in that sense.
LED
Despite a lot of the hype, LEDs won't be replacing HMI or Fluorescent anytime soon. You simply wouldn't be able to afford enough LEDs to replace a 1200w HMI for instance and when it comes to cyc lighting (green screens for instance), fluorescent will be better and more economical for that. Even if you did get enough LEDs to equal the intensity of a 1200w HMI (or 575w for that matter), the surface area emanating light would be much larger and the effect would not be the same.
Yes, LEDs do have their special uses though and we will have some LED fixtures in the fall. We recently had a design thread on DVXUser and many participated in the design of that model.
One place where LEDs really excel is when you use a small degree beam angle LED in a panel (like 15 degree to 25 degree), you can get the equivalent of a 500w or 600w tungsten fresnel with great throw thanks to the concentration of all light emanating from the lens and not so much wasted 360 degrees around the bulb like with a tungsten or metal halide bulb. If you just compare lumen output between LEDs and these other bulbs you can easily believe that the LED is quite a bit weaker. The reason the lumen rating is not as relevant is the lens configuration and how it concentrates light so efficiently out of the top of the LED. Its not totally the equivalent though because the shadows are kind of weird. So while it is pretty hard light, its not as hard as a tungsten or metal halide/HMI fresnel. An LED panel is a strange cross between a hard and soft light with some of the characteristics of both.
Our LED panel will be square, about 10.5" x 10.5" with the actual panel of LEDs being about 10" x 10" and have 600 LEDs (24 rows of 25). Light output is about the equivalent of a 600w fresnel. Voltage will be 12VDC and could be either a battery or our external 12VDC power supply. Wattage draw will be about 40w.
We have other LED models in the works but the 600 will be first. Target intro price will be in the $250 range and then going up to $350 after intro period.
One last note. All our products work on anything from 100v to 250v 50 or 60 hertz (with exception of the 200w 8U CFL bulb which is either 110v or 220v only) and we don't charge extra for that as many like Kino Flo do.
Chris Pickle
Well-known member
Wow, thanks Richard. That was some great info.
If we need 2 X 1200w Daylight balanced lights, I assume you would recommend the CL-MP1200 HMI PAR?
Do you sell it in a full kit config, with bulb, etc?
Cheers,
Chris
If we need 2 X 1200w Daylight balanced lights, I assume you would recommend the CL-MP1200 HMI PAR?
Do you sell it in a full kit config, with bulb, etc?
Cheers,
Chris
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Normally all our stuff comes with a bulb including the CDM fresnels. However, for now, we haven't been selling HMI bulbs with the 575w or 1200w fixtures as the inventory requirements for quantity are too steep to get a decent enough price to be able to pass on a good price to customers. So, we'll let others that specialize in bulb sales handle those more expensive HMI bulbs like the 575 or 1200w ones. The CL-MP1200 comes with head, barndoor, safety lens, cable and 575/1200w electronic ballast. The bulb it uses is a single ended Osram type HMI 1200W/SE hot restrike G38 socket.
vincelucero
Well-known member
I have two units and they work well in the studio. Did experience some flicker issues during warm up so not immediate use. Just like other HMIs.
James Press
Well-known member
When someone knows as much about a subject as Richard, and is as open with that knowledge, you know his products are going to be good. We love them, can't recommend them highly enough.
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Uh, they are admittedly cheap chinese copys of arris.
"We'll be packaging that in a 300w compact fresnel body (Arri clone)"
Keep in mind they are made in China. I have rented these out side of the US. Had 2 ballasts fail on us on almost brand new gear. I asked the Gaffer I was working with how he liked them. He said , "they are cheap. You get what you pay for. They are Chinese, the lenses explode, the switches wear out, the ballasts are shitty.....they are cheap."
Caveat Emptor
Nick
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Just a note for everyone. He is generalizing on all Chinese products and is not a customer of Cool Lights USA so he has no direct experience with our products. He had a bad experience with some Chinese brand but that was not our product.
Not all products made in China are "cheap chinese copies". Thats one reason I spend most of the year in China so we can manage the process and we don't have such issues. No one else is making a product like our CDM 150 fresnel. It may be in a body like an Arri but is far from a "cheap chinese copy". There are literally hundreds of these out there so far, even some on this board have them. No one is complaining of exploding lenses or ballasts that wear out on our products. Hundreds of our fluorescent fixtures out there too. Just go over to DVXUser to see the glowing reviews of our portables which are also not a "cheap chinese copy" but rather an improvement on existing designs.
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Just out of curiosity, how many different companies in china are making arri 1200 par clones?
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
Quite a few...
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Ok, maybe they were another companies Arri 1200 par clones.
One way to avoid the confusion would be to design your own housings...........
Nick
One way to avoid the confusion would be to design your own housings...........
Nick
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
I don't mind people doing reviews, I just hope they'll give the brand and model number so there's no doubt about who's products are being reviewed and that they are indeed mine... ;-)
Richard Andrewski
REDuser Sponsor
At the bottom of each product page is a button "Reviews". Just click on that and if there is a review of that particular product, it will come through. I don't know of a page that lists all of them in sequential order though and I'm not sure our web software has that but it would be a nice feature. There's also a rotating review box at the bottom left of the home page too which randomly displays different reviews each time home page is refreshed.
This was the featured review when I went to your main page:
HELLO
MY COMPANY INTERESTED IN FLUORESECNT VIDEO SOFT LIGHT AND COOL LIGHT 55 WATT AND MORE AND OTHER STUDIO AND VIDEO LIGHT ASSESERS PL SEND SOME 100% INFORMATION FOR CUSTOMER GOOD RIGHT PROTECT.
THANKS
KHALID.
xxxxxxxxxxx@gmail.com
Rating: [5 of 5 Stars!]
I'm interested in your products, but I'd like to see some bona fide trade reviews. Do any exist at this point?
HELLO
MY COMPANY INTERESTED IN FLUORESECNT VIDEO SOFT LIGHT AND COOL LIGHT 55 WATT AND MORE AND OTHER STUDIO AND VIDEO LIGHT ASSESERS PL SEND SOME 100% INFORMATION FOR CUSTOMER GOOD RIGHT PROTECT.
THANKS
KHALID.
xxxxxxxxxxx@gmail.com
Rating: [5 of 5 Stars!]
I'm interested in your products, but I'd like to see some bona fide trade reviews. Do any exist at this point?