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High Speed Cameras - suggestions and advice?

Mitch Martinez

Mitch Martinez

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Hi All,

I've been looking into various high speed camera options for overcranking beyond 120fps (or 250 when Epic hits). Obviously Phantom HD is well established...

What do you think of other cameras for pricing, performance, workflow, etc?

Companies I've found so far are:

Phototron
http://www.photron.com/index.php?cmd=products

IDT
http://www.idtvision.com/imaging/

Fastec
http://www.fastecimaging.com/indust_cams.html#hiSpec

Vicon
http://www.vicon.com/products/highspeedvideo.html


I can't find pricing for any of those cameras so far but I'm not in a huge rush...
 
If Film is an option don't negate the Photosonics 35mm cameras. I have used both the pin registered 4E which goes to 360 fps and the rotary prism 4C which goes to 2500 fps.

You can see an example from my reel here at http://fosterent.com/PRODUCTION_PAGES/production_7.html
and here at
http://fosterent.com/dessert/production_d.html
you can see several examples.

You do need a lot of light though. I built a 60K 3 foot softlight for these spots called "Bob" that you could only burn for 4 seconds before the diffusion caught on fire. Of course at 2500 fps 1000 ft of film goes through very quickly so that's no problem, and I did build in a 1K modeling light :–)
 
The key feature of the PhantomHD/PhantomHD Gold/Phantom Flex is the cinemag's that allow you to dump a take in a few seconds rather than playing out the take to tape/Nanoflash/Ki Pro or rendering to a QT/DPX/Cineform in realtime for tape, longer 15+ min for files.

You might also want to take a look at the Photosonics v640. Haven't used it myself but there are some folks in the US packaging it up with a Nanoflash and renting it for significantly less than a PhantomHD Gold package.

Weisscam is supposed to be very good but I don't think there are any up here in the Great White North.
 
Paul Steinberg said:
The key feature of the PhantomHD/PhantomHD Gold/Phantom Flex is the cinemag's that allow you to dump a take in a few seconds rather than playing out the take to tape/Nanoflash/Ki Pro or rendering to a QT/DPX/Cineform in realtime for tape, longer 15+ min for files.
Click to expand...

that's a very good point with the workflow in mind...

I've been reading up on Weisscam vs. Phantom and it sounds like Weisscam is designed much more for studio purposes than in the field. Phantom sounds much more versatile in that sense.
 
depending on your application too you should consider why the top dogs of high speed are used in productions. a lot of these are more scientific cameras, different workflows, but also different looks, and abilities. a lot of people choose weisscam and phantom not only because of their high speed and resolutions, but also sensitivity, dynamic range and overall "look" to match with 35 mm print or digital equivalent. a lot of scientific high speed cameras were built with the intention of maximum framerate and sensitivity but not so much on the film emulating look people so covet. test test test.
 
Tom.Wong said:
depending on your application too you should consider why the top dogs of high speed are used in productions. a lot of these are more scientific cameras, different workflows, but also different looks, and abilities. a lot of people choose weisscam and phantom not only because of their high speed and resolutions, but also sensitivity, dynamic range and overall "look" to match with 35 mm print or digital equivalent. a lot of scientific high speed cameras were built with the intention of maximum framerate and sensitivity but not so much on the film emulating look people so covet. test test test.
Click to expand...


very good point, Tom. thanks. I put in a price quote request with Abel Cine for Phantom a few different models of Phantom cameras. does anyone really hate when you can't find a price for gear?
 
Phantom or Weisscam are my recommendations. The various Phantom cameras are the most common and are very good. My friend does a lot of feature film compositing and works with slow-mo footage A LOT prefers the image quality from the Weisscam though.

Mitch Martinez said:
very good point, Tom. thanks. I put in a price quote request with Abel Cine for Phantom a few different models of Phantom cameras. does anyone really hate when you can't find a price for gear?
Click to expand...

Yup, we complained to Abel about it. Mitch Gross from Abel managed to get SOME prices on Abel at least in response to the Redusers' cries.

Personally I find it incredibly annoying - kinda elitist and unintentionally gives off a snooty "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" vibe. When I did ask for a quote on a jib they took their sweet time too getting me a quote. It also makes me feel that their buddies are getting better deals than me. It's also a huge pain in the neck when budgeting anything. Personally I just buy from companies that post prices instead. Which is sad, because Mitch is such an awesome guy on these forums. I've met him in person too and he's really great, knowledgeable, friendly, down-to-earth etc. But I don't think I am Abel's target market.

Anyway, I'm sure you will get excellent support when you buy from Abel. Hang in there and if you don't get a quote back in a few days, pester them!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Perhaps the trade-off with Weisscam vs Phantom is that Weisscam has a superior image but Phantom is lighter, smaller and more portable?

My thought on companies that don't post their pricing is that they are actually making it harder for people to buy items from them. Instead of a simple "click here to buy", you have to request a quote and then go through the buying process. If I was selling a product, I would do everything in my power to make the buying experience as simple and quick as possible - the quicker to get the sale, right? This isn't just Abel Cine... it happens a lot. I was at the ZGC website looking at the Weisscam cameras and they're also a "call for price quote". Honestly, we're big boys and girls... we can handle a large price tag. If we're even considering buying one, we're of sound mind enough to handle a $ number.

back to high speed cameras though... has any one had experiences with the various types of Phantoms? Do you have any comparison notes between the "flex", "gold", and v640 models?
 
Bruce Allen said:
Phantom or Weisscam are my recommendations. The various Phantom cameras are the most common and are very good. My friend does a lot of feature film compositing and works with slow-mo footage A LOT prefers the image quality from the Weisscam though.



Yup, we complained to Abel about it. Mitch Gross from Abel managed to get SOME prices on Abel at least in response to the Redusers' cries.

Personally I find it incredibly annoying - kinda elitist and unintentionally gives off a snooty "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" vibe. When I did ask for a quote on a jib they took their sweet time too getting me a quote. It also makes me feel that their buddies are getting better deals than me. It's also a huge pain in the neck when budgeting anything. Personally I just buy from companies that post prices instead. Which is sad, because Mitch is such an awesome guy on these forums. I've met him in person too and he's really great, knowledgeable, friendly, down-to-earth etc. But I don't think I am Abel's target market.

Anyway, I'm sure you will get excellent support when you buy from Abel. Hang in there and if you don't get a quote back in a few days, pester them!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...


Ha
Same here
Send them a request for, actually refurbished Phantom quote , that was about two weeks ago...
Have much love for Mitch, but seams he is the only one working at that place.
 
Tom is right. Test test test. Phantom's I've used don't have any sort of highlight knee so the exposure gets brighter in a linear fashion as you open the iris until it goes straight to clip. No forgiveness there so you really have to watch your highlights. When they clip they really look ugly.

The Weisscam to me seems a little more "field friendly", but again I haven't used it. From pix on the interweb it looks like the touchscreen/onboard recorder is pretty self contained. When I've shot Phantom I've always had it tethered to a workstation with a tech tagging the clips and either dumping to Cinemag or to tape.
 
I got word from Abel Cine about some of the prices being listed on the website:

"There are a number of reasons why some items do not have prices listed. One is that some of our contracts with manufacturers actually forbid us to do so. Often this has to do with the international nature of the internet, where clients may not understand the tariff, customs and exchange rate reasons for price discrepancies. Another reason is that often there are many variations of a product with various accessorizing, and a simple price may not accurately reflect a client's real costs once a proper kit is assembled."
 
does anyone know how much a Weisscam costs? I'll also try e-mailing ZGC for a quote since they don't list the price.
 
Mitch
Unless you are in the niche market, I don't believe it's really beneficial to buy those cameras. They really get outdated fast.
Rent them, not cool, I know:)
I know FJC has 2 used phantoms for sale, shoot him an email.
"fred at fjsinternational.com
 
I remember Jim stating that he could give us a high speed, for the price.
Epic-s :)
Jim?
I would love to test Epic with its 120fps in 5k
I could be in LA with Cavalia next month...
Horses in 120fps look great.
 
albert rudnicki said:
I remember Jim stating that he could give us a high speed, for the price.
Epic-s :)
Jim?.
Click to expand...

that would be awesome. for some reason, I think I remember Jim posting that they weren't really interested in the high speed part of the digital cinema market. 120fps at 5k and 250fps at 2k might be all we'll see from RED. although, RED always has a way of coming up with new surprises for us... so here's hoping they do a high speed brain for Epic.
 
albert rudnicki said:
Mitch
Unless you are in the niche market, I don't believe it's really beneficial to buy those cameras. They really get outdated fast.
Rent them, not cool, I know:)
Click to expand...

Sound advice. Thank you, Albert. I'll drop Fred a line and see what's cooking.
 
Good luck Mitch
Let me know if you get one; it may trigger the compulsive me:)
I guess what really would make me happy, if we could with Epic get some 200fps in 3k or at least 2.4K
The 2K, if the same as in Red, will not cut it when delivered in 1080p
Best

Albert
 
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