Hey guys, I need help about "the business"

[Willy Sacul]

Hi all,
I am a film student that has VERY limited funds.(so keep that in mind)
I want to do all my own grading on my films.
Everytime I bring my film to a post house it cost me 200 per hr and when it all said & done, My personal color grade version looked "almost" as good as the one I paid 4,000.00 for.

Every post house has told me to Color grade on a Broadcast monitor If I plan to show it on DVD or Theater projection.

So, Can you guys make a list of items I need to buy to get a "basic setup"
Do I need an SDI card? If so, what would be an entry level.

Think of it this way. I have $2,000.00 to spend, so I would need the BARE minimun.

And please don't yell at me , I'm well aware of the thousands it should cost to get a decent setup.
I just need a setup better than using my 24" HP consumer monitor.
----------------------------------

2nd question:

Why in gods name is Premiere Pro a dirty word in post houses?
Everytime I need to send them footage or audio, they ALL say......"Are you using Final Cut or Avid"?
I used final cut & avid but I LOVE premiere. Why doesn't anyone else love it?

Thanks,
Willy

 

[Matt Ryan]

Get a Decklink Extreme 3D+ ($945) if your using Resolve. As for monitor, get a Panasonic 11 series plasma if you can find them. Or get a 10bit NEC panel http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-NEC-DISPLAY-PA271W-BK-MultiSync-27-LCD-Monitor-VUKUNET-free-CMS-/160720423951?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item256baf0c0f#ht_3651wt_1114 - 27" $1399

These aren't the same as a professional post house but you should get decent results for what you are trying to do. (Color on a budget)

And get this calibrator for your monitors: http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-Rite-i1Display-Pro-Display-and-Monitor-Calibrator-USB-Powered-EODIS3-/390370280395?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae3e1c3cb - $249

As for your current HP monitor, switch it out for a 23" Apple Cinema Display. You'll be a lot happier with it and you can get them for as low as $250 used.

Question 2:
Premiere is a rather new entry to the pro editing market. It was never considered previously because it wasn't in the same range as Avid and FCP, but now things have changed. Avid was the original standard, then FCP came in and took a huge market. Those two were the standar for years and now Premiere Pro has stepped up. Not a lot of post houses have embraced Premiere yet but with time I'm sure they will adapt.

 

[Scott Crawley]

My personal color grade version looked "almost" as good as the one I paid 4,000.00 for.

I know it stings and all but try and remember that you are getting more for the money than just a grade that looks a little better than yours. You are getting a finish that will look consistently better than yours wherever you show it. If the only screen that matters belongs to your prof., and you know you can hit that target then yea, save the money. If you aren't sure you can hit it, then compare the 4k to the cost of four year's of going to school. It's worth the money.

 

[Willy Sacul]

Hi Matt,
Ok, I will look into them, however, I thought I have to grade on a Broadcast monitor ONLY, if I want to goto Blu-ray/DVD?Projection-theater?
Is this monitor different that a high end consumer ?

And yes, I really hope Premiere makes its way into Pro houses. I feel like they are forcing me to switch to FCP because it's not "the standard".
And while we're on the subject, how about Pro tools. I happen to LOVE Audition. But try sending your project to a post house with an Audition Project file.
The truth is, I would use Pro tools but the dam thing wont run unless you have Hardware installed ie, mini box, etc.

----------------------------

Thanks Scott for the input,
Yeah when I say Almost as good, I mean mine looks good on my PC monitor, and their copy looks good on my TV

 

[Matt Ryan]

Nonsense about the broadcast monitor. It will yield superior results to color on a broadcast monitor due to the bit depth of the panel, but ultimately you can color on a properly calibrated monitor and go to blu-ray, dvd, and theater with great results. A broadcast monitor is much different than even a high end consumer tv because it is made specifically for the purpose of reproduction and accuracy. A broadcast monitor has a higher bit depth, better color reproduction, and is easily calibrated.

The Panasonic 11 series plasma's are used by tons of colorists and they are not broadcast monitors.

Not everyone can be a world class colorist or even afford one. So get the best tools you can, calibrate it as best you can, and color. Correct calibration is a must in order to get decent results. Otherwise you will be fighting n uphill battle with every color pass you make.

Pro tools is definitely the audio standard. It's mainly due to the fact it is the most advanced and accurate system there is for audio and everyone uses it. It is unfortunate that you need hardware but i thought the newest release removed that limitation...Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Willy Sacul]

Oh, ok...I'll look into that monitor.

Also, Do you know anything about RAID SYSTEMS?

I have a whole bunch of question and no answers.
For example,

I looked online at prebuilt raid systems at the apple store. They range from 400.00 to 40,000.
Now from what i understand, all a raid is, is 2 hard drives links together and work as one.
Then there's the RAID 0, 1, 5,10, etc.. for performance, right?

Now, I have about 6 1-gig seagates all ready to be reformated.
What is the difference if I plug in all 6 into my pc, and make a raid out of that
or
..buy a 6 bay raid system for 2,500.00 + ???

Is there any benifits buying prebuilt?

2nd question:

For color correcting (Da vinci), what raid system would you use, ie; 0, 1, 5, etc..???
Of course, I'm looking for performance more that safety/backup.

Thanks,

 

[Matt Ryan]

I admit I have no experience with raid setups. I only color stuff I shoot or small project for friends so usually only daeling with one drive.

The raid setup is basically several drives in an array, running in several different types/formats of RAID. Are you just looking strictly for more disk space, or are you looking for a setup that has half of the drives available and the second half is a mirror of the first half (meaning a backup copy)?

If your just looking for more disk space your array would basically be read as one large drive...

 

[Björn Benckert]

My opinion is this. IF you do not have clients questioning your monitor then a apple cinema display or above will do. You do not need a broadcast monitor. Trust me I got 3 right in front of me all day when I work and all I can tell you is that they are all top grade monitors. One CRT one LCD and one LED. and guess what they will no matter how much I calibrate them look all the same.

So if you think that you can find a monitor and say. this is it. then sorry that does not exist. Monitors are bad or not so bad they are not perfect, some are more likable than others. But even two broadcast sony or barco monitors of the same make and model feed with the same signal will show small differences in gamma, color tint and such.

So my best advice is to find a monitor you can trust, in other words one that is not to bad. Then you, check it against your laptop, other computer screen, your TV etc. Preferably it got a calibrating system built in. If not you use the bars to set the contrast and color tones right.

Then you grade and save your work in high color space, like 16 bit or such or even r3d if you grade in redcinexpro. then you make your test DVD's to see your tone on different sets. You will soon find out that you are to contrasty or pale or over saturated or such from looking at more than one screen.

So your monitor is on part of this floating equation, your quicktime conversations is another. When making quick times it's quite difficult to stay within the same gamma, one quicktime file can look great on some mac's and horrible on others, or on pc. So that is something I find more of a struggle than the actuall screen.

 

[George Tsai]

I've worked with pro-tools, audition and logic a lot for many years and currently I personally prefer working in Logic for many many reasons, one being you can more in Logic than Pro-tools at a fraction of the price AND without limited hardware selections that costs an arm and a leg. There has been several occasions however where i would work on a project at home in Logic, then bounce all the tracks (yes it gets big, but at least it bounces faster than real time and you get same result if you bounced in realtime unlike pro-tools), then brought it to a pro-tools studio and mixed/master with the D-Command control surface.

On small and medium sized projects this works fine. But if you're dealing with 100+ track feature film, stick with protools and its extensive hardware;-)

I used to love pro-tools, but they are becoming a bit archaic. Yes you can work fast if you have had many many years of experience, but I was able to work even faster sometimes in Logic in less than half the time I've spent using Pro-Tools. Both are great, just take a pick at which you like best and probably start navigating away from audition

 

[Willy Sacul]

Hi Matt,
Well, I am looking more for Performance, than disk space or backup. From what i've read about Divinci, Scratch Lab, etc..they all state that a RAID is a must if you want 24 frame playback on 2k footage. Although I work mainly on 5D footage at the moment, I'm sure in the very near future, I will have r3D files at 2k to deal with.

I am making a shopping list of items to get me up & running on a very BASIC setup. I know there are guys on this forum that would say "if you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all" or " you get what you pay for"
But I truely believe that it can be done without spending 80,000.

My major problem has ALWAYS been this Broadcast legal range vs Full range issue.
I watched a webinar about Legal range vs full (scratch vimeo), and although I understood it, it still left me saying..."
ok, so I should output a legal range LUT to... output a full range.........no, wait...or was it a full range Lut to .... ...dam !!!
Then my film goes to a theater, and i say......crap..why is my film so dam dark & flat looking? It must be that dam Broadcast monitor I DON"T HAVE!!! DAM!!

Anyway, I had time to see your website, .. VERY IMPRESSIVE

 

[Matt Ryan]

Hi Matt,
Well, I am looking more for Performance, than disk space or backup. From what i've read about Divinci, Scratch Lab, etc..they all state that a RAID is a must if you want 24 frame playback on 2k footage. Although I work mainly on 5D footage at the moment, I'm sure in the very near future, I will have r3D files at 2k to deal with.

I am making a shopping list of items to get me up & running on a very BASIC setup. I know there are guys on this forum that would say "if you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all" or " you get what you pay for"
But I truely believe that it can be done without spending 80,000.

My major problem has ALWAYS been this Broadcast legal range vs Full range issue.
I watched a webinar about Legal range vs full (scratch vimeo), and although I understood it, it still left me saying..."
ok, so I should output a legal range LUT to... output a full range.........no, wait...or was it a full range Lut to .... ...dam !!!
Then my film goes to a theater, and i say......crap..why is my film so dam dark & flat looking? It must be that dam Broadcast monitor I DON"T HAVE!!! DAM!!

Anyway, I had time to see your website, .. VERY IMPRESSIVE

While a RAID will help I am running Red R3D files realtime with 10-12 nodes over fw800....I agree that a full time colorist should be using a RAID setup but for someone just doing it as a hobby or side job esata will work just fine. Like I said im running the full license version of Resolve and I get realtime via fw800. So it can be done.

To be honest I have learned to just get what gets me by for the tasks at hand (I'm no professional colorist or even claim to be a colorist but not having a budget means I have to do it myself). Once you get bigger jobs and start getting paid more, then add on the gear you need to make the next step if you want to be a colorist (In my case that would mean I can hire a real colorist instead of doing it myself). Until then stick with what gets you by and do the best work you can do.

As for LUTs, it's easier to grade however you want in resolve (with or without LUTs), render it out, take back into FCP or Premiere and drop on a broadcast safe filter. That's been a shortcut for me. It also gives you a direct view of what it will look like so you know before you export for your delivery. It's not ideal but it works. There is also an option in the resolve render window to render legal video only so you could try that instead of the full range data.

Thanks for the kind words

 

[Marc Wielage]

The truth is, I would use Pro tools but the dam thing wont run unless you have Hardware installed ie, mini box, etc.

Funny: I'm running Pro Tools 9 just with a iLok, just a USB dongle. No special hardware beyond that, but I'm just doing simple stereo outputs. For any more than that, I'd need an M-Box or one of the bigger D/A output boxes. Anything I do can be pulled into a big Pro Tools rig and put up on a stage for a final mix, if necessary.

You'd be surprised at the number of major sound effects and dialog editing that goes on with very simple Pro Tools workstations. If you're just working on three people talking at once, and mixing and matching dialog scenes, massaging levels, cross-fading different takes, you can do a lot even on a laptop.

I am a film student that has VERY limited funds.(so keep that in mind). I want to do all my own grading on my films. Everytime I bring my film to a post house it cost me 200 per hr and when it all said & done, My personal color grade version looked "almost" as good as the one I paid 4,000.00 for.

Color-correction is an art and a science, every bit as much as cinematography or sound mixing or visual effects. I think for all these professions, it takes 5000 hours to get competent at it; maybe double that to become a bona fide expert. As an old pal of mine likes to say, "it's not the arrows... it's the archer." And there are color correction houses with a wide variety of rates in different cities. If an experienced colorist can get done in eight hours with might take you three days, maybe it's worth it.

But in color-correction, if you can't believe the monitor, all bets are off. Find a monitor that can be calibrated to proper Rec709 standards. That plus a computer capable of running DaVinci Resolve would be a minimal setup on which you could do usable work -- provided you had the skill and experience to judge each shot and decide where to go with it. There have been many past discussions on monitor calibration; do a search and you'll see them.

Why in gods name is Premiere Pro a dirty word in post houses? Everytime I need to send them footage or audio, they ALL say......"Are you using Final Cut or Avid"? I used final cut & avid but I LOVE premiere. Why doesn't anyone else love it?

Premiere has its fans, going all the way back to the original program designed by Randy Ubillos at Adobe... who went on to create Final Cut Pro. Yep: the same guy created both.

Post houses have limited time and resources in terms of what they can support in terms of file-based delivery and session formats. Realistically, they shouldn't have to deal with session files for a short film (assuming that's what you're doing). You should have the ability to just deliver the final outputted files and let them deal with creating the deliverables (tape, files, film, whatever), adding titles, laying back the final audio, and so on. Post houses ultimately can save you money on your project, simply by advising you when you're about to run off the road and make a serious technical mistake.

Often, the best choice is to figure out your workflow before you shoot a frame of material. Find out what the deliverables need to be (aspect ratio, running time, video standard, color space, resolution, compression, audio formats, intended market, etc.), then work your way backwards to figure out a way to get there.

There are no up-to-date books on "Post for Dummies" (though Barbara Clark's TV Post Production for TV & Film, was a decent book for the analog 1990s). I expect there will be more on this, possibly at NAB in a few weeks. Premiere is not an awful program; for example, although Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was edited on Avid, they did a lot of the conforming in Premiere for certain reasons. Sometimes, one program isn't the best tool to do multiple things.

 

[Willy Sacul]

Hi BJORN,
You seem to be doing what I've been doing. I have a dual 24" HP consumer monitors Calibrirated with several "online" & built in Charts. I then Have a 32 HD TUBE TV, yes...TUBE... It was HD ready.. I think 720 p Res. , Anyway, so when I grade, I have 3 monitors to look at. BUT here's where Color space burns my ass.

I burned a DVD of my film. I put it in my TV and it looked PERFECT. I then took the SAME DVD, and played it on my PC (that I graded on) and it was FLAT. It had the blacks lifted. So I'm thinking it's the old.... Legal range VS Full range issue. You know...."Your can't view a legal range dvd on a full range monitor" Ok,.. well then why when I watch a hollywood DVD in both tv or PC, they both look good???

It is so fustrating because I can do a great job color correcting. The god dam problem is learning how to make it look good in theatres, & common TVs across the USA.
And I KNOW every colorist will say "you can't expect it to look the same on every tv" Yes, I know that, but then why does Jurrasic park look good on every tv?
No one says..."why is it so dark? or why is it flat looking?" They seemed to have found the solution to the problem. Well, I want to learn it too.

 

[Willy Sacul]

Find a monitor that can be calibrated to proper Rec709 standards.

OK, you bring up a GREAT POINT.

For 2 years, I have been calibrating my monitors with charts. This one.. http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php

Is that 709?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

1 - Buy a Panny Vt30
2 - Buy Calman DIY
3 - get an i1 Display Pro

The above will get you VERY close to Rec 709.

To get closer, buy Lightspace - and load the 3D lut into Resolve for fine-tuning.

With Lightspace and an i1 Display Pro you will be 100% dead-on perfect for Rec 709 with a VT30 to a degree below what all but very few human eyes can distinguish as a difference. For really, really perfect, get a better measuring probe (but for really better, you'll have to spend major bucks) Just calibrate your TV before using Lightspace.