HERE... Goes the RAVEN's market (Smh)

[Kwan Khan]

Kwan, I do not frankly care how many Ravens you have, will have, or had plus the fact that you're "Times Square" based (oh boy, oh boy city lights!) The fact that you're attempting to make jokes and taking pictures of packages speaks to your maturity (or lack there of).

Thank you for the kind words, Mr. Thomas,
Caring - about your fellow users, about things, about life - is also an act of maturity.

Btw, Being funny is one of my greatest strengths (sorry, can't help it), however I won't say anything in this thread anymore.. Please feel happier...

Cheers

 

[M.Halsell]

Sharegrid.com

Sharegrid.com

Are gear owners have good success with Sharegrid?

 

[Daniel Pearson]

What is the expected day rate for a basic Raven package?

In Australia Epic Dragon's rent for $500US/day and Scarlet MX for a bit over $200US/day (https://offshoot.rentals/hire/cameras/). Though Raven has far better specs than MX Scarlet, I see it eventually floating around that point since the Scarlet-W will have to slot in somewhere between there and Epic/Weapon.

Looks like 6K Weapon is renting around $600US/day

http://www.hummingbird-rentals.com.au/cameras/4-red-dragon and http://www.ignition.com.au/red-epic-dragon-6k-camera-rental-melbourne

I don't own a Raven nor do I rent my gear or intend to rent a Raven, just curious what the expected Raven day rate will be?

 

[Gene Sung]

While we are at it, I am NYC based as well and will be renting my kit around the same price WITH lenses. I am fully insured so it doesn't matter. I am happy to help fellow junior filmmakers with cheap prices.

Kwan, I do not frankly care how many Ravens you have, will have, or had plus the fact that you're "Times Square" based (oh boy, oh boy city lights!) The fact that you're attempting to make jokes and taking pictures of packages speaks to your maturity (or lack there of).

Fact being, who ever owns this cameras can rent for whatever they want. If you're worried about these people cutting into RED's rental market - then just do a better job of promoting your rentals at your prices.

Hello Thomas,

Seems like you are quite new to Reduser (and so am I), but do you realize that this is a professional forum with DPs, even ASC members, that are far better and have way more experience than both of us combined? Who are trying to make a living off their talent and gear?

While you can rent your Raven for $136 with lenses, but coming on here loudly and aggressively announcing your intensions to under cut everyone and starting a forum war is probably not the most respectful or smartest thing to do. Make friends, not enemies; as it gets you a lot further in career and more importantly, life.

 

[Thomas Ramsey]

Hey George,

Thanks for your words, but I NEVER once said I intended to undercut anyone more or less start a forum war. I also know there are top notch guys that make money off renting their gear, but let's be practical here....with the Red Raven so accessible and in a "budget friendly" price bracket, it's a fact that rental pricing will become VERY competitive. There will be too many cameras in the wild. There is no use for individuals like the OP to start threads complaining about people like Luke, who initially offered his kit at $136 per day. With websites like ShareGrid, CameraLends, LensRentals, etc. on the rise, expect to see packages (regardless of their wear and tear) available at hard to beat prices. It's just reality.

 

[Thomas Ramsey]

Are gear owners have good success with Sharegrid?

Yes, I had a good experience with my Digital Bolex when I owned one. I also rented a RED Scarlet Dragon package on ShareGrid NY from a gentleman named Montgomery less than $300 a day. A VERY good price, great camera (in better condition than most rental houses in the city) and awesome gentleman who I talked shop with upon camera inspection. I have rented on multiple occasions for b-cams and some lens packages. Nothing but a positive experience. I like dealing with owners face to face rather than a rental house if it's not a large order - but to each their own.

 

[Michael Hastings]

This thread is going down hill fast.

But the point is that not everybody buys their cameras solely for shooting with them. For many people, renting the cameras out is a big part of how they plan on paying the camera back. Many business are built on not only shooting but renting cameras. If somebody comes in and wants to rent a Raven for $200 with lenses and we advise against it we are saying so for multiple reasons.

One reason being that we are looking out for you. At $200 a day, assuming the standard 3 day weeks, It would take approximately 30 fully rented weeks to pay off a appropriate camera package. A Raven will not rent out like that, and even if it does you'll surely see a lot of damage to the camera caused by people renting packages in that price bracket. Your investment will never pay itself off. If you're looking for extra cash by renting out the camera, why not charge the little extra and get extra cash? And you'll know the camera is with somebody you know who will respect the camera. If you know a student or a friend personally and you want to give them a deal, then charge them whatever you want.

The other reason we advise against it is that there are some people out there who may have squeezed out enough money to buy a Raven with the plan to get some of that money back by renting it out. It is disrespectful to those people to undercut them so much that they can't make any money off that investment. At $200 a day with lenses you're not even close to a 1% daily rental value, when you should be in the 3-5% daily rental value.

The original ad said package value was $12300 - that's only 61 days at $200. If a package goes out with more equipment - so a higher replacement value - one would expect the rate would be adjusted for the additional gear.


61 days - even by rental users - shouldn't be an extreme amount of wear - and to totally pay it off. Maybe I've been lucky but my renters have been pretty easy on my gear (sometimes better than I am :wink5

Here's our basic scarlet-w package

AQUAVIDEO Standard Scarlet-W Rental Package:

Red Digital Cinema Scarlet-W Camera “Brain” SN00176

incl.
BASE I/O V LOCK PACKAGE
Side SSD Module
BASE I/O V LOCK
TOP HANDLE
AC ADAPTOR
STANDARD OLPF
4.7” Touch LCD
RED MINIMAG 120
Canon Mount (Standard) []
RDC PACKAGE: RDC REPLACEMENT VALUE $14500.00
---
RED MINIMAG 512 (RV:$2450) ---
RED STATION MINIMAG (RV:$195.00)
cables:FW800;eSATAeSATA;USB/Power;USB3
---
Batteries:
SONY BP-L75 #1 [ ] (RV:$599) SONY BP-L75 #2 [ ] (RV:$599)
SONY BC-L90 BATTERY CHARGER (RV:$899)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STANDARD BASE PACKAGE TOTAL REPLACEMENT VALUE (RV) $19,242
---

3% would be $577

We normally quote $800 and when we do sub rentals with a local house they get 30% off which comes to $560 and that has worked while Scarlet-W is in short supply but I expect those numbers to drop to around $600/$420 pretty soon. Basically I will end up being happy with $400/day net and not thrilled but okay with $300-$350/day net as things level out. $350 day would pay off the package in 55 days which seems reasonable to me. I would expect Raven to rent for a third less so $230/day but maybe rents less often because it does have significant limitations.

To me Scarlet-W (obviously with appropriate accessories) covers virtually every need of even very high level production - 5K at S35 with all of the improvements of the weapon DSMC2 system, is really the sweet spot - and except for really high frame rates or certain shoots where 6K/8K is needed it should be fine for any production.


------------------

People need to get over the idea of getting big numbers that pay off their system in 20 days of rental. There are too many cameras out there, plus all of the Alexas, Canon C300s, Blackmagics, etc. It is now a commodity market where prices have to be more reasonable - and relative to what people are comfortable paying on a regular basis.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Its a free market.

The word "free" being tbe crucial part - everyone has the "freedom" to set ANY price, even "for free."

Interns work "for free" - and the market is cool with that.

Everyone has "their price" in this market - both on the buyer and seller side.

I can imagine a portion of the market being turned AWAY by such a low rental quote, under the assumption the gear may not be in as good condition, or by being wary of the "service" if something goes wrong.

Sometimes on big jobs, your willing to pay MORE for the service/security of a large rental house...like Abel.

So - theres lots of room in this market for lots of prices. This may be the FLOOR, but I doubt it will be the AVERAGE or NORM.

 

[Hugh Scully]

Yes, I had a good experience with my Digital Bolex when I owned one. I also rented a RED Scarlet Dragon package on ShareGrid NY from a gentleman named Montgomery less than $300 a day. A VERY good price, great camera (in better condition than most rental houses in the city) and awesome gentleman who I talked shop with upon camera inspection. I have rented on multiple occasions for b-cams and some lens packages. Nothing but a positive experience. I like dealing with owners face to face rather than a rental house if it's not a large order - but to each their own.

This is interesting. I apply a rental rate for my gear when people hire me. I can rent out my gear with my insurance but don't because I don't really have the infrastructure to provide a decent rental service.

I would think that renting gear from an owner/operator (without them operating) would be a pretty high risk for some productions. Losing even part of a shooting day over failed gear is way more expensive than just renting from a rental house in the first place. For the individual owner, what do you do if there is a failure? You can't back it up with replacement gear. I guess the owner who is renting can always replace failed gear by renting themselves but, at such low margins, it's risky. Plus you'd have to be available to run it out to them, if you can at all, losing more money and time. I don't see it.

However, if it's understood and the production can risk it, I guess it's not much different than me renting my gear with me. Except of course, I'm there to look after it, and I've shot and tested the exact setup so many times.

I don't think I'd rent my lenses... or the monitor... or... yeah, I wouldn't do it. Probably just chicken :scared:

 

[Matthew Quinn]

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/video/cameras/red/brains/red-raven-brain

seems pretty cheap

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I think Hugh's point is the main one. No real job with a budget is going to risk renting a camera from an individual (not owner/dp) who has no support for back up and is an 'unknown'. A producer would prefer an Abel or similar as some have mentioned. I would also imagine that if it is a larger production they will most likely rent a Weapon or something else. I mean why not? Better is better. And the camera is often a cheaper part of the puzzle anyway. So this low price Raven rental is a different market segment. Not sure how to define. Indy, student, doc, corporate, wedding, real estate? I don't know exactly.

I have no opinion on the matter, but I find it interesting that it appears at these rates cameras like the FS7 are holding their rental rates almost better. Which is bizarre maybe. And then also unique to playing in these waters - there are those who will just stick with what they know like a GH4 or FS5 or whatever. So seems like it is tricky if you don't have a real solid personal and artistic plan for why you got the camera.

This is interesting. I apply a rental rate for my gear when people hire me. I can rent out my gear with my insurance but don't because I don't really have the infrastructure to provide a decent rental service.

I would think that renting gear from an owner/operator (without them operating) would be a pretty high risk for some productions. Losing even part of a shooting day over failed gear is way more expensive than just renting from a rental house in the first place. For the individual owner, what do you do if there is a failure? You can't back it up with replacement gear. I guess the owner who is renting can always replace failed gear by renting themselves but, at such low margins, it's risky. Plus you'd have to be available to run it out to them, if you can at all, losing more money and time. I don't see it.

However, if it's understood and the production can risk it, I guess it's not much different than me renting my gear with me. Except of course, I'm there to look after it, and I've shot and tested the exact setup so many times.

I don't think I'd rent my lenses... or the monitor... or... yeah, I wouldn't do it. Probably just chicken :scared:

 

[Andrew Linga]

lol at this thread

 

[Gene Sung]

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/video/cameras/red/brains/red-raven-brain

seems pretty cheap

Seems cheap but that's the brain only. Probably need to add another $5K to $6K worth of parts to get it running which Lens Rental will probably charge another $400 to $500 for 6 days. They charge shipping which is $25 just for a lens, so a Red package is probably more. I believe you have to buy insurance through them if you don't have it so in the end it's probably about $1000 - $1200 for 6 days which seems like an OK rate for a 6 day Raven rental.

At least it's not a total race for the bottom like on Sharegrid.

there are those who will just stick with what they know like a GH4 or FS5 or whatever. So seems like it is tricky if you don't have a real solid personal and artistic plan for why you got the camera.

I have to agree with this. For me, getting cameras has always been for education, artistic and work purposes. Seems weird to spend $10K on a Raven, and rent it out for pennies and risk a very expensive repair bill. Seems better if you use it more to improve your skills as a DP which will lead to far more money and an actual career. You're probably better off working at McDonald's for money than renting your Red package for next to nothing.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

I quit the rental game and sold my Epic Dragon, took me 3 years to eventually make the decision.

What I learned is:

1) You have to invest tons of money into gear CONSTANTLY. People always want the latest and the greatest and in today's climate when there's a new camera or a set of lenses every 1-2 years it's a race that only select few can be a part of.
2) Rentals distract you from the things you really want to do (if it's not solely rental business). This may not apply to DPs who sell themselves with their gear, but if you want to direct, or write, or anything else, it just eats your mental energy.
3) Renting your gear is always a hassle, because people try to push your prices down, they do a comparative search on the market and make calls telling you that "that other guy is X% cheaper" and then do the same with "that other guy". Hate this, don't want to be a part of it.
4) You love your camera, let's be honest, and when you rent it out it starts to age quickly, it will never be as pristine as a camera that you use for your projects only. Some people are not too careful too, so the risk of damage to your gear is much higher, yes there is insurance but I'd rather have a never repaired camera that a repaired 2 times one (even if it doesn't cost you).
5) There is always going to be that one "smart" guy who decides that he will undercut everyone with low prices, and it brings the whole market down, little by little.
6) Producers in a "rent from an owner" realm only care about price 90% of the time, they will rent a shittier kit for a lower price even though you have a nicer monitor, a better wireless system and that special thing no one else has. This does not apply to big productions, but big productions do not "apply" to owner-renters, they go to big rental houses anyway.
7) People who rent from you today and only start out very often forget about you when they get their big break, it's cooler to rent from Panavision and "but bro, you don't have that very rare ana zoom" and all that kind of shit.
8) The competition was hard even when there weren't any Ravens and Scarlet-Ws on the market, it's going to become insane now.
9) 90% of DPs doing any sort of middle to big commercial work will ask you for Alexa XT or Alexa Mini, sorry to break it for you, but that's just the way it is now.

In the end I realized that this road is just not worth it for me, even as a backup plan, it's not leading me to a place where I want to be. That is why I sold my camera and getting a Scarlet-W instead, which I will use solely for my projects (I could've gotten a Raven, but no ana support and a sensor size smaller than S35 is a dealbreaker for me). I was thinking about getting an URSA Mini or even a Sony a7SII, but it's too hard to get off the RED train, the quality and feature set are just too good.

I'm investing the money that have been "freed" as a result of this deal in myself - making my short, shooting some needed spots for my reel etc. And I feel great cause there's no more rush and no more race and I can finally spend my time on things that I want to do and that lead me down the path I have always wanted to go.

 

[Guy Staley]

Well stated.

I quit the rental game and sold my Epic Dragon, took me 3 years to eventually make the decision.

What I learned is:

1) You have to invest tons of money into gear CONSTANTLY. People always want the latest and the greatest and in today's climate when there's a new camera or a set of lenses every 1-2 years it's a race that only select few can be a part of.
2) Rentals distract you from the things you really want to do (if it's not solely rental business). This may not apply to DPs who sell themselves with their gear, but if you want to direct, or write, or anything else, it just eats your mental energy.
3) Renting your gear is always a hassle, because people try to push your prices down, they do a comparative search on the market and make calls telling you that "that other guy is X% cheaper" and then do the same with "that other guy". Hate this, don't want to be a part of it.
4) You love your camera, let's be honest, and when you rent it out it starts to age quickly, it will never be as pristine as a camera that you use for your projects only. Some people are not too careful too, so the risk of damage to your gear is much higher, yes there is insurance but I'd rather have a never repaired camera that a repaired 2 times one (even if it doesn't cost you).
5) There is always going to be that one "smart" guy who decides that he will undercut everyone with low prices, and it brings the whole market down, little by little.
6) Producers in a "rent from an owner" realm only care about price 90% of the time, they will rent a shittier kit for a lower price even though you have a nicer monitor, a better wireless system and that special thing no one else has. This does not apply to big productions, but big productions do not "apply" to owner-renters, they go to big rental houses anyway.
7) People who rent from you today and only start out very often forget about you when they get their big break, it's cooler to rent from Panavision and "but bro, you don't have that very rare ana zoom" and all that kind of shit.
8) The competition was hard even when there weren't any Ravens and Scarlet-Ws on the market, it's going to become insane now.
9) 90% of DPs doing any sort of middle to big commercial work will ask you for Alexa XT or Alexa Mini, sorry to break it for you, but that's just the way it is now.

In the end I realized that this road is just not worth it for me, even as a backup plan, it's not leading me to a place where I want to be. That is why I sold my camera and getting a Scarlet-W instead, which I will use solely for my projects (I could've gotten a Raven, but no ana support and a sensor size smaller than S35 is a dealbreaker for me). I was thinking about getting an URSA Mini or even a Sony a7SII, but it's too hard to get off the RED train, the quality and feature set are just too good.

I'm investing the money that have been "freed" as a result of this deal in myself - making my short, shooting some needed spots for my reel etc. And I feel great cause there's no more rush and no more race and I can finally spend my time on things that I want to do and that lead me down the path I have always wanted to go.

 

[Evgenios Zosimov]

I rent my Epic Dragon brain/lcd for 350$ a day / 300$ 2+ days strictly to 3 production houses and certain DPs, turned down a lot of random requests. It brings a few grand a month between my shoots, so cant complain.

 

[George Bellamy]

I saw the guy who posted that on Facebook in the Red Raven Facebook group, everyone in the comments were criticizing him of destroying the market xD

 

[Mike Garrick]

And just to put some perspective on it an article from 2008 on red one rental saturation.....
http://workbookproject.com/newbreed/2008/12/26/red-one-rentals-impending-

Did everyone really expect this not to happen again & again with all this new product hitting the market ?

The truth is, the business model of hiring out gear solely to get a ROI & profit is going or gone. To budget and rely on anything else is plain dumb.

 

[Luke Marcus Rosen]

Thank you all for your valuable insights on the topic. Since originally posting the sharegrid listing on the Red Raven's facebook group page, I have now raised the rental price to $240 a day. But this isn't because of the people who have called me a smart ass or told me I have no clue what I'm doing. I'm raising it because of the other issues well presented on this thread, as well as concerns people have sent me privately. Individual unknown renters will always try to low-ball to intentionally screw over the rental market. My intention was to make my money back quicker, thinking the cheaper price would attract more potential renters. Because this has struck a chord amongst us, I apologize.

Despite being the cheapest new Red camera, the Raven is still a chunk of cash that I need to ensure it pays off one way or another. Thanks again for everyone's input; I'm happy to keep moving along wiser than before if everyone else is too.

 

[Brody_B]

Thank you all for your valuable insights on the topic. Since originally posting the sharegrid listing on the Red Raven's facebook group page, I have now raised the rental price to $240 a day. But this isn't because of the people who have called me a smart ass or told me I have no clue what I'm doing. I'm raising it because of the other issues well presented on this thread, as well as concerns people have sent me privately. Individual unknown renters will always try to low-ball to intentionally screw over the rental market. My intention was to make my money back quicker, thinking the cheaper price would attract more potential renters. Because this has struck a chord amongst us, I apologize.

Despite being the cheapest new Red camera, the Raven is still a chunk of cash that I need to ensure it pays off one way or another. Thanks again for everyone's input; I'm happy to keep moving along wiser than before if everyone else is too.

And you have every right to do just what you want with your gear, so I'd do just that. Hopefully you rent the hell out of that thing