Help with getting a functional workflow with Davinci

[AndreasOberg]

I've been trying now for a while to create a working pipeline with FCPX and Davinci but it just doesn't work.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The normal roundtrip that is suggested seems to be too unstable in Davinci. Examples:
1) I import my 5 edit movie into Davinci 10 Beta. Crashes instantly.
2) Trying 9 instead. Imports pretty well. I Deliver and save a new fcpx xml. When I try to open it into FPCX it refuses and has a 10 page Error Dialog.
3) Davinci 10. Trying a simpler project with some titles. Manage to get it into Davinci and then back to fpcx. Ok, now all the title animations I did in fpcx are broken and have been replaced with Davinci 10 titles. I remember having problems with Davinci 9 here too.

Right now what I'm testing is this.
- Import into Davinci 9, render all the movies out (but not the xml since that will crash fcpx). Then in fpcx I manually replace every clip in the timeline with the new color graded versions. I can live this this. However then I lose the handles. I have some ideas of making this process easier. Maybye I should use the identical names and try to link it automatically to the new ones, but that means I must unplug all the old source or it will find it instead.

- The best way to do it as far as I understand is. Create the dailies in Davinci and then you ALWAYS work with these files from Davinci. This means that Davinci will have a link to the files and you can just replace them with graded versions. Only problem is have already edited much in FPCX with files not linked to Davinci.

All the round trip videos I found on the internet are very simple, I can get those simple ones to work too but when I have real projects it gets real trickly.
Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated, I really like grading in Davinci...
/Andreas

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

3) Davinci 10. Trying a simpler project with some titles. Manage to get it into Davinci and then back to fpcx. Ok, now all the title animations I did in fpcx are broken and have been replaced with Davinci 10 titles. I remember having problems with Davinci 9 here too.

I mostly work with FCP7 and Resolve 9, but with those I just keep the titles and graphics on separate tracks and copy-paste everything on those tracks from the offline sequence to the online sequence after the grade is done. I would assume you could do that for the titles in FCP X as well?

 

[AndreasOberg]

That is a good idea. Its a bit trickier in fpcx since the titles are actually connected to the clips but you can put the titles onto their own "layer" with some fiddling.

Best wishes
Testing more here...

 

[Shiblon Wixom]

Import everything into FCPX as separate elements, cannot have merged audio/video files, and create a new temp project and replace all your titles and VFX with temp slugs.

 

[AndreasOberg]

Thanks Shiblon. Can you elaborate a little bit please.
Import everything. Do you mean import all the video and also import the audio separate? So they can be later synced together.
- The new temp project, is this empty or a copy of the old project.

Thanks!
/Andreas

 

[AndreasOberg]

Another thing I'm trying to "resolve" (hehe):

My footage is normally shot in 2K CDI ratio so 5200x2700.

In fpcx I normally zoom to fit my 5k material with about 1.09%, this gets rid of the borders.
The problem is if I render out from Davinci in 1920x1080 then I get the wrong ratio on most Red media. so then I have the borders burned in the 1080 files.

What I'm trying now to avoid this is to use a 2k CDI resolution on the project in Davinci and output 2k CDI clips from Resolve. This is a bit messy since not all films have this aspect ratio.
Anyone knows how to deal with this?

A few possible ideas:
- render them out in higher resolution to begin with so I can zoom more in fpcx or fit. This will create much bigger files though.
- render in 2k CDI like I'm trying now. Maybe the other clips that have 1080 have to be hand picked and rendered in this resolution. I wish Davinci had a "render clip in the same aspect ratio as source" setting.

/Andreas

 

[jake blackstone]

1) I import my 5 edit movie into Davinci 10 Beta. Crashes instantly./Andreas

First of all, V10 is beta. It is released in the wild to help find problems you're describing. Crashes in beta are to be expected.

2) Trying 9 instead. Imports pretty well. I Deliver and save a new fcpx xml. When I try to open it into FPCX it refuses and has a 10 page Error Dialog./Andreas

You need to make sure you'd exported FCPX XML. It's different from standard FCP XML and it will not work with FCPX.

3) Davinci 10. Trying a simpler project with some titles. Manage to get it into Davinci and then back to fpcx. Ok, now all the title animations I did in fpcx are broken and have been replaced with Davinci 10 titles. I remember having problems with Davinci 9 here too./Andreas

Read my first note
I had successfully done numerous roundrips between Resolve 9 and FCPX, which included titles. Resolve just mutes all FCP and FCPX effects, but keeps the information for the XML export. Once you open new Resolve XML, all FCP and FCPX effects, including titles magically reappear.

 

[jake blackstone]

Another thing I'm trying to "resolve" (hehe):

My footage is normally shot in 2K CDI ratio so 5200x2700.

In fpcx I normally zoom to fit my 5k material with about 1.09%, this gets rid of the borders.
The problem is if I render out from Davinci in 1920x1080 then I get the wrong ratio on most Red media. so then I have the borders burned in the 1080 files.

What I'm trying now to avoid this is to use a 2k CDI resolution on the project in Davinci and output 2k CDI clips from Resolve. This is a bit messy since not all films have this aspect ratio.
Anyone knows how to deal with this?

A few possible ideas:
- render them out in higher resolution to begin with so I can zoom more in fpcx or fit. This will create much bigger files though.
- render in 2k CDI like I'm trying now. Maybe the other clips that have 1080 have to be hand picked and rendered in this resolution. I wish Davinci had a "render clip in the same aspect ratio as source" setting.

/Andreas

What's CDI?

 

[Shiblon Wixom]

If you're using a full version of resolve, output 2.5k or 2k instead of 1080p, otherwise you have to live with letterbox. Usually for FCPX we import 1080p transcodes without sound and sync up in FCPX, no embedded sound, you can sync up sound in RedcineX and output BWF conformed audio if you don't have a TC lock. It just avoids many potential round trip XML issues with resolve, by being able to output and grade visual elements only.

When you output edl/XML files, it's usually best to make a temp version of the project and strip it down to as few tracks as possible (not much you can do in FCPX) and place slugs in place of unfinished content such as vfx shots. Beyond that you'll have to open the edl/XML and fix it manually, it's just basic scripting.

 

[AndreasOberg]

First of all, V10 is beta. It is released in the wild to help find problems you're describing. Crashes in beta are to be expected.

You need to make sure you'd exported FCPX XML. It's different from standard FCP XML and it will not work with FCPX.

Read my first note
I had successfully done numerous roundrips between Resolve 9 and FCPX, which included titles. Resolve just mutes all FCP and FCPX effects, but keeps the information for the XML export. Once you open new Resolve XML, all FCP and FCPX effects, including titles magically reappear.

Hiya, yes I'm experimenting with both 9 and 10. 10 is better in some areas while 9 is more stable in some areas.
I am exporting fcp xml. I have other projects working but not the main commercial I'm working with. I'm going to send some bug reports to Black Magic.

Sounds great that you got the titles to work, I haven't managed that yet.
/Andreas

 

[AndreasOberg]

What's CDI?

Sorry I meant 2K DCI which is the Digital Cinema Initiative 2K standard for cinema. Its 2048x1080 resolution.
Hehe, CDI was actually one of the worst consoles every created, its still haunting me it seems
/Andreas

 

[AndreasOberg]

If you're using a full version of resolve, output 2.5k or 2k instead of 1080p, otherwise you have to live with letterbox. Usually for FCPX we import 1080p transcodes without sound and sync up in FCPX, no embedded sound, you can sync up sound in RedcineX and output BWF conformed audio if you don't have a TC lock. It just avoids many potential round trip XML issues with resolve, by being able to output and grade visual elements only.

When you output edl/XML files, it's usually best to make a temp version of the project and strip it down to as few tracks as possible (not much you can do in FCPX) and place slugs in place of unfinished content such as vfx shots. Beyond that you'll have to open the edl/XML and fix it manually, it's just basic scripting.

Thanks for the tips Shiblon. Very helpful. Version 10 seems to support higher resolution in the Lite version actually. I expect us to upgrade to the full version fairly soon.
Ok, so sound syncing you do in FCPX. If you have time code do you do it in Resolve? It seems like a way of avoiding too many separate files in FCPX.

How do you normally sync in FCPX? Myself I create a compound clip where I manually align all the audio channels. I also used pluraleyes when I have a scratch track but that doesn't work with red raw files, guess it would work better if I transcode from Davinci instead.

Fixing it manually in the xml file is worth a shot. I considered writing a script for fixing links, but I'm used to programing on PC and now I'm on Apple so a bit new terrain for me.

Thanks for all the help guys!
/Andreas

 

[AndreasOberg]

I found a pretty useful setting in the Project Settings.
Input Scaling: Scale Full Frame With Crop
Output Scaling: Same

So here it will just fit the 2k image to 1920 without any bars. You can reposition it a bit if you need in Davinci. Of course if you render in higher resolution it may be better to have some room for "panning" in fpcx, but this could work for most of the cases.

/Andreas

 

[AndreasOberg]

Hiya,
Just thought I would do a summary since I'm now up and running with FCPX to Davinci. Fantastic program, but it has a few kinks to work out. I'm not sure I'm using the best way to work with it, but it works pretty well for me now.

2 ways I'm using it:
1) New Project (Davinci 10)
If I haven't edited anything in FPCX it's much easier to grade with Davinci. Before I would do my first grade in RedcineX, but now I'm doing this first grade pass in Davinci instead.
1.1 Create a project with 2048x1080 resolution in Davinci. I normally have 1/8th debayer in the beginning since I normally have 1,2 hour of footage.
1.2. I import all footage into Davinci by just select and drag from the folder in the Media page.
1.3. Create a new timeline. Add all footage to the timeline so they are just after another. Good idea to first sort them after creation date then they will be in order.
1.4. Color grade. Focus on getting the luminance equal first and then I do a basic color grade. You can copy paste the color grades between them. I often do one grade then paste it to all the others and then I adjust the ones that stand out as too dark/bright.
1.5 Now I set up a Deliver. Make sure the resolution is 2048x1080 and that you include audio (if needed). Use ProRes. Here you can chose either proxy or the more heavy codecs. Also make sure you have "use source name" checked. Pick a folder where you want your files to be delivered.
1.6. Now right click on the timeline and chose Select All. Then you Add job. Later you can right click one clip and Select it, then you can add a new job. Every time you select a new clip you need to add a new job. Make sure to save your project.
1.7. Import all these clips into FCPX. You probably don't need to create any proxies since these will be super fast to edit with. Now you are ready to edit.
1.8. If you need to grade these shots again just open this project again, change the colors and deliver. The old files will be overwritten with new cool color graded shots.

2) Existing FCPX Project that I want to merge to Davinci
This method is for the times when I'm having projects that are working with the Red raw files in FPCX but I want to begin working with Davinci. The round trips that are written on the internet simply doesn't work stable enough for me so I created my own workflow.

2.1 Export from FPCX into xml
2.2 Import into Davinci 10. If it crashes import into Davinci 9 and open in 10, this may work. Make sure you have selected import used clips.
2.3 Now you have all the clips. Create a new timeline and add all the clips. Notice that I'm not using the FCPX timeline but I'm just grabbing all the shots, the reason is that I often want to grade while I'm editing. However if there is no need to edit you may instead use the FCPX timeline. In my experience the timeline is often a bit broken, the import is not really working with me very good from FPCX.
2.4 Now you got all the clips on the timeline. Go in and color grade as in step 1.4.
2.5 Go to Deliver, render out all the clips with the same name to a new folder.
2.6 Now comes the trick. I go into FPCX and copy the project. Now I'm going to replace all the clips in FPCX with the graded clips. I right click and Open in Timeline on the first graded clip in the Event. I select all and copy. Then I go to the project in FPCX and select the first clip. Right click Open in Timeline. I delete everything and paste the new sound and video into the clip. If you have synced audio here just leave it. I repeat this process for every clip. What I'm doing here is a manual replacement of every clip with the new ones. I'm basically doing a manual round trip, the benefit is that Davinci will not mess up the timeline in any way. For a 5 minute movie this may take 15 minutes so its not so bad. I'm sure Davinci will just keep getting better with these round trips so we won't have to use primitive workflows like this.
2.7. Ok so now I have my project merged to a project that is connected to Davinci. I can deliver new color grades shots replacing what I'm using every time.

Some tips
- I found that you can actually render smaller versions first and work with them in FCPX, later you can replace with higher resolution videos. Basically a way to save render time.
- I read that some render ProRes 4444 from RedcineX and then they use this as the "raw" data in Davinci. The only benefit here would be that its faster. Takes a lot of harddrive space though.
- Notice that the ProRes files will no longer have meta information like the red file has. Not sure if there is a way around that.
- If you have frame rates that do not match I now just render them out in Davinci. For example 25fps to 23.976 fps. Works well for those situations, it will just make the clips a bit longer.

3) Future ideas
I'm playing with the idea of using Davinci as the finishing tool. The downside with using FCPX as a finishing tool is that you will transcode the same file many times. You will get. Red->FPCX Graded->FPCX Export->Vimeo Transcoding if you are uploading on the internet. This means you have 2 transcodes before you upload to Vimeo which will transcode again. If you finish in Davinci you have this many transcodes:
Red->Davinci Export. So here its only 1 transcode. I'm not sure how much difference this actually makes. I heard that ProRes can handle multiple transcodes well, but I have to do more tests to verify that this is really the case.
My main problem I'm having in Davinci is:
- logos
- still images

One way around this would be to do all logos in After Effects and render them out as a movie with alpha. That should hopefully fix the logos since they are now just movie clips. I'm testing with doing ProRes 4444, this seems to work great.
Stills. Need to test more. Maybe render the stills as movies, a bit silly but should work.

Hope that helps a bit for Davinci new comers. Any thoughts from others are of course always welcome.
/Andreas

 

[AndreasOberg]

Now I spent some time on actual projects and I do not recommend the workflows I wrote above. The round trip way has pain it, but my experimental methods above had MUCH more pain connected.

This is how I do things now
- I delete all the titles, sound, generators in FPCX
- Export XML
- Undo the Delete so you get the titles back
- Go into Resolve. I'm using the 10 beta. Fix all the problems. There shouldn't be too many problems in Resolve since you don't include so much. However you will have problems if you are using Ken Burns, flipping images etc. All of that must be manually fixed in Davinci by resetting the parameters.
- Now deliver the file with the round trip preset. Tweak if needed. I recommend using 50 frames as handle or more. I normally use DCI resolution to match aspect ratio of my red files.
- Export XML

- Open in FCPX. Now you got all the videos in, but more needs to be done
- Open the old FPCX project and select all titles and all sound. Copy
- Go to the new project, select the first frame and Paste. This will actually paste all the titles and sound and connect them to the magic timeline. Nice!

Basically when importing to Davinci there will be some pain. Better bear with it and fix the problems, it will be better in the end.
Any ideas and improvements are always welcome.

/Andreas