Help Needed Configuring Post Set Up For Big Indie Feature:

[Med D]

... always do regular date/time backups outside of the Autosave feature just in case of file project corruption.

This is pretty important for CS6 at least. Adobe's autosave is worse than useless. I would not rely on it at all. It is not a simple save of a point in time, instead Premiere "manages" the back-up files. Periodic "save as" is the only way to go in Adobe.

 

[Mike Nagel]

I'm hoping to NOT need to employ lower-res proxies.

Bill,

if u got the right machine, there's no need for proxies.

I just edited a 35 mins short using 4.5K/5K/6K lowest compression .r3d RAW files in PP CC / CC 2014... no problem at all. set 1/2 debayer and view to 50%. for different aspect ratios between the various footage, check "scale to frame size" for these clips... do all final cropping/masking when mastering in Resolve etc

PP works like a charm...

I personally cannot edit off anything other than the native RAW files... I'm so anal about certain things in the frame or on faces, that (sometimes, depending on the "problem") I will decide not to do post on it but rather consider a different edit of that particular part of the scene... which is always possible if u shot enough footage/angles/coverage.

I'd be concerned maybe not spotting some of that stuff on low-res proxies... YMMV.

Working off RAW gives u all that detail, which u can kick in/out whenever u want and I have ZERO lag in PP CC 2014.

disclaimer: Windows 8.1 custom build machine that eats apple sauce for breakfast.

 

[Bill Jacobs]

Thanks everyone, for all of your input and time taken in responding. I do appreciate it. Seriously.


I must admit though, it’s all quite frustrating.


Yes, post technology is in a constant state of flux, and there are endless variations of hardware configurations. But it really seems as if we’re left these days to hunt for setups and workflows, ways of knowing exactly what works with what. Companies seem to put out products – and truly incredible ones at that – but we’re left to scavenge and search for exactly how to make those amazing tools do what they’re supposed to do.


My BIG WISH is that there was some kind of clearinghouse of combined thought and expertise on the matter – how about a well-organized database someone could reference with their specific hardware, software, media format, and desired output? Supply info via drop down menus, providing your computer configuration, your graphics cards, your media sources, formats in, formats out, etc. … and out come detailed workflow concepts, with suggestions for sequence settings, playback, and output rendering – even recommendations for additional equipment or graphics cards, if the inputted system configuration provided isn’t up to snuff for the desired work to be done. There SHOULD be such a resource.


But in the absence of that wonder, I've posted here and in various outside forums. And throughout, I'm amazed at the lack of consensus (not to mention the directly conflicting advice) and the overwhelming absence of any tried and true workflows that folks are willing or able to share (at least for the system configuration I provided in my post). Maybe it’s because (as someone else referenced) when and if they DO find something that DOES work – they want to keep it as their very own secret recipe. Then again, that’s probably just the frustration talking…


So, I think the best recourse is to now search for a paid technical service to step in and assist with our setup and workflow. Of course, the trick there is to ensure that even THEY know what they’re doing and have actual experience with Premiere and the base system we plan to use.


There are just too many questions, too many variables in play that threaten losing weeks and months of post work, all because of one element not being correctly configured.


Ah, the good old days when you could actually read multiple, concise manuals and actually KNOW how to make things work…

 

[Björn Benckert]

Thanks. That's valuable advice, Björn. Truly. I had already decided to divide it into two parts, but after reading your post, I'm reevaluating to find six or eight points (based on expected transitions) that would lend to individual projects to house the whole. We're currently set up with three (3) Pegasus II 24TB RAIDS, daisy-chained and connected to the MacPro via thunderbolt. We're backing up everything to LTO-5, 3TB cartridges.

You say the discs are Daisy chained... what read write speed does that give you? Better to hook up the drives directly to the trashcan and make sure the two drives you use the most are on seperate TB busses. As I remember they are divided in left and right rows.

Also before starting try different configurations I would consider to stripe a raid of the discs and possibly get double the read write speed basically that could give you 2x TB2 speeds. I just check with BM's disc test tool to see what workes the best. Also make sure there is enough discs in the raids to max out the TB2 connector. I think for pegasus that means 8xHDD in each raid, 12 is even better but as I remember 8 will pretty much max out the ports and are less costly.

If you got MX material I would buy an old rocket they do not cost much and they give you good speed and nice SDI out. I have one I can sell if you want it.

If I was you I would do my own testing, In the end it comes down to what you are willing to pay versus how much lag and stuggle you can put up with.

Personally I would consider using more than one machine and possibly have duplicated source raids. that makes it possible to work on one machine while rendering on the other etc. And if you want even more preformance then add a SAN network with centralized storage.

And if you want even better then you buy a flame premium that comes with a few flame assists on mac which all works really well over san, you can simply sit and edit and composite on the same timeline from a few different machines at once and you can have the backburner doing all the rendering in the background or even

 

[Mike Nagel]

Thanks everyone, for all of your input and time taken in responding. I do appreciate it. Seriously.


I must admit though, it’s all quite frustrating.


Yes, post technology is in a constant state of flux, and there are endless variations of hardware configurations. But it really seems as if we’re left these days to hunt for setups and workflows, ways of knowing exactly what works with what. Companies seem to put out products – and truly incredible ones at that – but we’re left to scavenge and search for exactly how to make those amazing tools do what they’re supposed to do.


My BIG WISH is that there was some kind of clearinghouse of combined thought and expertise on the matter – how about a well-organized database someone could reference with their specific hardware, software, media format, and desired output? Supply info via drop down menus, providing your computer configuration, your graphics cards, your media sources, formats in, formats out, etc. … and out come detailed workflow concepts, with suggestions for sequence settings, playback, and output rendering – even recommendations for additional equipment or graphics cards, if the inputted system configuration provided isn’t up to snuff for the desired work to be done. There SHOULD be such a resource.


But in the absence of that wonder, I've posted here and in various outside forums. And throughout, I'm amazed at the lack of consensus (not to mention the directly conflicting advice) and the overwhelming absence of any tried and true workflows that folks are willing or able to share (at least for the system configuration I provided in my post). Maybe it’s because (as someone else referenced) when and if they DO find something that DOES work – they want to keep it as their very own secret recipe. Then again, that’s probably just the frustration talking…


So, I think the best recourse is to now search for a paid technical service to step in and assist with our setup and workflow. Of course, the trick there is to ensure that even THEY know what they’re doing and have actual experience with Premiere and the base system we plan to use.


There are just too many questions, too many variables in play that threaten losing weeks and months of post work, all because of one element not being correctly configured.


Ah, the good old days when you could actually read multiple, concise manuals and actually KNOW how to make things work…

well, it takes time to build and maintain that db... but if u want one, u could start one ? ;-)

there are many posts and threads here where peeps share their results, but obviously u gotta do ur own research, nobody's gonna do that for you. Unless you pay somebody to do it.

The other thing: workstation configurations and the resulting performance is not as straight forward as it would appear, there are many factors that come into play...

but the good news for you:

u can work with any workstation. If it's not juicy enough, use proxies or edit in 1/4 | 1/8. I really don't see the problem, there were never more options than today. U just gotta read up on things and then make a decision what to buy or build.

It's hard to directly advise you something as we don't know ur budget, we don't know ur technical expertise (building vs. buying assembled) and we don't know what exactly u wanna do with the machine (editing | VFX | grading | all of it | etc)...

For example: if u have budget X and u say u wanna edit and grade on the machine, I would tell you right away to save a good chunk of that money for a really good screen... better to have a "lower" spec machine (and edit with proxies and or lower res) but then have a fully calibrated, color accurate screen on which u can grade properly...

it all depends.... ;-)

 

[Detlev Eller]

for pure editing ... redline QT proxies rock! ... i´m editing 5k proxies in fcp even on an ancient 2007 macbook pro, when needed ... pretty sweet ... ;-)

 

[Marc Wielage]

So, I think the best recourse is to now search for a paid technical service to step in and assist with our setup and workflow. Of course, the trick there is to ensure that even THEY know what they’re doing and have actual experience with Premiere and the base system we plan to use.

There are very good post supervisors and post engineers out there who know current technology extremely well and have to be on top of the latest breakthroughs and costs of what it takes to build a post house. But people like this don't work for free, and the total costs can get very high very quickly. I seem to recall Michael Cioni of Light Iron Digital remarking about this when he talked about the difficulty of getting real-time 6K playback for their Pablo system, which is technically capable of doing 8K.

I think monitoring, building the room, and building the infrastructure are going to be pretty substantial expenses. But there are engineering consulting businesses out there familiar with doing this. Many medium-to-large post companies in LA and NY generally hire outside firms to come in, provide bids and drawings, and then actually do the physical wiring and construction of the facility. The trick is pulling this off while the facility is still working on other projects at the same time.

 

[Bill Jacobs]

After digesting all of your input, we have decided to SWITCH from the MacPro 12-core to a PC platform for our postproduction.


We’re planning on purchasing and implementing the following equipment (editing – as described in my original post above – our RED 5K footage on a Premiere 4K timeline without the use of proxies). We’d greatly appreciate any input that can be offered with respect to whether the following setup should do the job or needs to be augmented:


- HP Z840 Workstation
- Intel® Xeon® E5 2600 v3 processor
- Intel® Xeon® E5-2699 v3 (2.3 GHz, 45 MB cache, 18 cores, Intel® vPro™)
- Intel® C612 (chipset)
- 256 GB DDR4-2133 ECC Registered RAM (is this adequate?)
- Still undecided on our internal storage (but most likely a SATA SSD)
- NVIDIA® Quadro® M6000 (12 GB) (we’re thinking we should go with TWO, especially for use with Resolve)
- Has anyone found that Windows 8.1 Pro 64 or Windows 7 Pro 64 works better with such a set up (Adobe Premiere, After Effects, Resolve, etc.)?


Sorry to say good-bye to Apple, but: WE … NEED … POWER (not to mention a corporate devotion to professional, high-end video editing solutions).


Thanks!

 

[Mike Nagel]

I run latest PP, AE, Resolve, PS, NUKE and PT10 on Win 8.1 with no problems... ;-)

 

[PatrickFaith]

I btw just ordered a z840 similar to yours, getting the power supply to support two m6000 I found tricky, so I just went with one and two of thec10 core 3.1 the processors.

on the Mac vs pc, your going to have a mix: Macs and pc's play well together now. how you manage your disk arrays I think is a bit more complex, and doing everything on internal drives for a feature I think is insane. I use a bunch of the promise raid drives, works for me since very few people hit then at the same time and I have zero time to debug stuff. I btw use a post systems house to order all my stuff, and they make sure the entire post system works.

 

[Michael Winokur]

Great problem to have!

Be careful and consistent with naming, bins and folders from the start. The edit in Premiere will probably get pretty smooth for you after you get started. I find I have the most trouble in post doing round trips to sound and color, OMF, EDL, XML these things all have quirks. They each support some but not all effects (time effects being the most significant because you can end up not sending enough frames to color) so make sure you know what you're going to do with clips that have effects / aftereffects on them when it comes time to ship to Resolve. I would suggest you test the in advance and keep sequences to 'reels' as Bjorn suggests. In fact test your entire workflow from logging to DCP creation if you can. Suerte.