Help Needed Configuring Post Set Up For Big Indie Feature:

[Bill Jacobs]

We’ve got incredible performances from an amazing cast of well-known character actors from film, TV and stage, a unique and inspiring script, and some truly beautiful, cinematic footage. But now — it’s all about putting it together…


I’m working to set up an effective and dependable post workflow and properly configure all of the hardware to post a lengthy feature film shot on the Epic in 5k FF.

Having worked mostly in film (though posting numerous projects in AVID, Premiere and FCP), I’ve done a lot of searching on the forums, have set up the system to the best of my ability, but still need help weeding through all of the information here to ensure I’m doing this correctly. As I do tests, I keep encountering all kinds of glitches and headaches. If a reference to a paid individual to help with this is what I need, I’m open to that, as well.


I’d like to edit in the latest version of Premiere on a 4k timeline (to take advantage of reframing and stabilization of the 5k). Footage is on three Pegasus II RAIDS.


I have a Mac Pro with:
- 2.7GHz 12-core Intel Xeon E5 with 30MB of L3 cache
- 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3 ECC - 4X16GB
- 1TB PCIe-based flash storage
- Dual AMD FirePro D700 GPUs with 6GB of GDDR5 VRAM each


Sonnet Echo Express III Desktop 3-Slot (with Thunderbolt upgrade) housing the following:
- Red Rocket
- Connection card for HP LTO5 Ultrium 3000 Sas Ext Tape Drive


If needed, I’m open to acquiring other cards or hardware, too.


There will be a LOT of work done outside of Premiere in AE and other compositing and graphics programs — and I’d like to finish in Resolve.


As a newbie here, I greatly appreciate any advice, pointing-me-in-the-right-direction, or suggestions of individuals to help oversee this for compensation and screen credit that anyone can offer me here...


Many Thanks,
Bill

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I would hire the team Fincher had at his disposal. This is the exact workflow they used.

Short of that, it's a matter of getting your system configured properly so that you are taking advantage of the processing power both on CPU and GPU. You'll also want to make sure your RAIDs are optimized and running at top speeds. I think if you are able to dial everything in so it's a well oiled machine you'll probably have a good experience. Personally, I still edit long form in Avid. It's what I know best and is usually very reliable will big projects. But Adobe has made some strides. And you'll find the integration with AE is a lot smoother with Premiere. If you weren't doing a lot of AE I would say have a closer look at Avid.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I usually recommend dividing the film into 5 acts and edit and work on them separately. Even think it's a good idea to have one project for each. Things tend to work much smother when timelines are shorter and libraries smaller. Then burn out lowress clips for the different acts and keep them accessible within all the different "act projects" so that I always have access to the whole edit even though 4/5 of the film is hard committed clips.

Been doing it this way for 18 years and it saved me quite a bit of mishaps. Corrupted project files, etc are not fun when the whole film is affected and tend to happen more often when all the eggs is in one basket. I also think any timeline is far more easy to overview when it´s shorter and there is not as much zooming in and out and such. Auto saves goes faster and there is not as much lag.

But all editors has their own way of doing things.

What storage will you use? If you work on multiple machines I would suggest a tiger technologies san/fiber solution with ato fibercards. We use such between 8 machines and have 50Tb on the server and have really good experience from it. Linux, mac's and PC's all play well together and the datarates are constant and very constant and high.

 

[Hal Long]

I'd suggest following strict protocol importing your clips. The bigger the project, the more Adobe has issues with clips that are simply dragged into the project. Bjorn's suggestion of splitting the sequences makes a lot of sense to mitigate corrupt files. Other than that, fast, fast drives! Remember, you can lower playback resolution to smooth playback. Seems like your set-up should do well as long as your drives are fast enough.

 

[PatrickFaith]

here's a direct link to the gone girl exact configurations: http://on-demand.gputechconf.com/gtc...-Jeff-Brue.pdf

 

[Marc Wielage]

I would hire the team Fincher had at his disposal. This is the exact workflow they used.

Took the words out of my mouth, Steve.

I would also hire a post supervisor who knows what they're doing. Editing in 5K is not for the faint-of-heart. Note that Fincher actually used lower-res proxies, then used DPX 5K files at the end for color because of the massive number of VFX in that show.

I would also advise Bill to make sure everything is done in at least 10-bit color depth, because the default on After Effects is typically 8-bit. I've dealt with a few producers who shot in 4K but then were disappointed at image flaws with 8-bit VFX. You can theoretically do 16-bit in AE, and though the file sizes are much bigger, that's definitely a good way to go. Maya, Mocha, and Fusion are also all very good choices for VFX.

I also agree with Björnthat working on the film as separate sequences, then putting them together in 20-minute reels is an easier post path. Don't forget that different departments (VFX, graphics, sound, color) all have to work on the files simultaneously. It's much harder to ripple changes in a single 120-minute file made up of 2500 shots than it is six 20-minute files with about 400-500 cuts apiece... especially when last-minute changes happen.

 

[Bill Jacobs]

I would hire the team Fincher had at his disposal. This is the exact workflow they used.

Ah, if only!

Thanks, Steve. I appreciate your advice. The trick now is to find some reliable, concise info for configuring our system -- based on what we currently have -- or suggestions on what would greatly help us if we were to add (maybe upgrade to or add Red Rocket-X?). I agree with you, and we're counting on the new Adobe advancements and integrations to help carry us through on this!

 

[Bill Jacobs]

I usually recommend dividing the film into 5 acts and edit and work on them separately. Even think it's a good idea to have one project for each.

Thanks. That's valuable advice, Björn. Truly. I had already decided to divide it into two parts, but after reading your post, I'm reevaluating to find six or eight points (based on expected transitions) that would lend to individual projects to house the whole. We're currently set up with three (3) Pegasus II 24TB RAIDS, daisy-chained and connected to the MacPro via thunderbolt. We're backing up everything to LTO-5, 3TB cartridges.

 

[Bill Jacobs]

I'd suggest following strict protocol importing your clips. The bigger the project, the more Adobe has issues with clips that are simply dragged into the project.

Thank, Hal. The more I read, the more I'm hearing that this is a most important point. Fortunately, we've already been following this while doing our sound synch. I guess my main question with that now would be: Our DIT created individual project files for each scene that he used to import all of the files and synch up all of our sound. I'm hoping that I'm not asking for any problems now, if I properly import his project files into the new project files I create for each section of the main edit, and pull his synched/merged files fro there...?

 

[Bill Jacobs]

here's a direct link to the gone girl exact configurations: http://on-demand.gputechconf.com/gtc...-Jeff-Brue.pdf

Thanks, Patrick. I appreciate that. Now I just need to keep digging to be able to know what all of that references! I think Marc's suggestion below (hiring a post supervisor) can help majorly with this...

 

[Bill Jacobs]

I would also hire a post supervisor who knows what they're doing. Editing in 5K is not for the faint-of-heart.

Indeed. I think that's the best way to go -- if only to help with the initial hardware set up and workflow configuration. My biggest concern then is in FINDING such an individual, someone who has actual experience with, firsthand knowledge of what we're trying to do. And with the advancements in Premiere -- even since Fincher's use of it in Gone Girl -- I'm hoping to NOT need to employ lower-res proxies. Ah, the good old days when you could just pull out a manual, spend a day or two digesting it, then make it happen...

 

[Med D]

Page 13 of that Gone Girl summary could use a couple of sub-pages -- more detail in other words. I have yet to find a single, concise, RED-centric process summary that goes from R3D through the Adobe ecosystem and out. There are so many little things that can massively impact both render time and image quality. I'm not surprised that those who may have a totally dialed-in process are reluctant to share.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Page 13 of that Gone Girl summary could use a couple of sub-pages -- more detail in other words. I have yet to find a single, concise, RED-centric process summary that goes from R3D through the Adobe ecosystem and out. There are so many little things that can massively impact both render time and image quality. I'm not surprised that those who may have a totally dialed-in process are reluctant to share.

I think that each show brings it's own set of challenges and requirements which sometimes makes the end-all-be-all workflow document tough. A lot of movies and TV that I do is going to Avid or FCP 7. So, there are many here who are more familiar with the nuances of the Adobe workflow. My only suggestion would be to make sure that each stage of the process has been done in a way that it makes conforming and sound mix not painful. On a feature, one or two missteps could be costly in the end.

Bill, do you have a workflow manifesto that you are creating? I find this is a good way to make sure everyone is on the same page. If not, this would be something that a post supervisor can help you out with.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Another thing to keep in mind is that dailies were handled by Fotokem's nextLAB, a system I have used several times. These systems and others like them are built for creating a smooth dailies pipeline where image, sound, and metadata can be integrated to create deliverables correctly. Think of it as a link between set and finishing.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'm hoping to NOT need to employ lower-res proxies. Ah, the good old days when you could just pull out a manual, spend a day or two digesting it, then make it happen...

What do you hope to save or get by using the camera originals? There's huge advantages in using proxies, and I'm not sure what you gain by using camera originals except having to deal with massive, massive amounts of data. Bear in mind you're only making the initial decisions. I know of lots of movies that cut on laptops, cut in mobile homes on location, cut on plane trips, cut in hotel rooms, all kinds of places where I don't think bringing in 200TB of files is necessarily a good idea. And the editor needs to access every single take of every scene just in the unlikely event there's a moment here or there they need, sound and picture, even from an unused take.

I know of a couple of films where the actors were fooling around right before the slate, and the editor caught one of the actors making a silly face. By luck, that happened to work for a scene he was having trouble with... and that unguarded moment wound up in the final film. So great editors really do look at every frame of every scene, which requires a ton of storage, diligent backups, and a good memory for scenes.

I don't think 4K/5k/6K/8K picture quality is necessary when you're just trying to figure out the guts of the story, where the performances are, which angles work best, and how to approach every scene. Once you've got the picture to the point where it's getting much closer to be locked, then I could see relinking to the camera original files and watching it on a better monitor. But believe me, just reasonable ProRes 422 files can look fantastic on a 50" monitor in an editing room. 4K is not going to be jaw-droppingly better on a monitor this size, particularly if the computer is struggling under the bottleneck of having to debayer these files on the fly.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I think Bill is looking for something along these lines. This is from No Film School article.

The way David overshoots the frame in his films allows me to edit within the shot, then I throw it to the guys to sew together in After Effects, make it spotless, and stabilize the shot. That way David can judge the shots by the performance and delivery, rather than making comments on the technical aspects.
The real magic of this workflow was Adobe's dynamic linking between Premiere Pro and After Effects. Baxter could create sequences, send certain shots off for VFX work in After Effects, and then when the VFX artists saved their comps, they would be automatically updated within Baxter's timelines. This ability to both edit and create subtle VFX at the same time and place, then marry the two in real time, made the revision process much simpler and more streamlined. Add to that the fact that all of this was done with 6K footage, and it's clear just how impressive this post workflow really was.
From the sounds of it, Fincher's team was extremely satisfied with the streamlined Adobe workflow, and they will continue to refine and use those tools for future films. Whether Hollywood will begin to adopt similar Adobe workflows is questionable, as most post houses are still firmly rooted in Avid. However, if nothing else, the post production of Gone Girl proves that Premiere Pro is more than capable of handling the editorial of a major Hollywood film.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

They key to the Fincher workflow is the close collaboration with the VFX artists. They are all tied to the same ecosystem. Being under the same roof allows them the immediacy and efficiency that is sometimes more difficult when VFX is being done by multiple companies all over the planet. It's one way of working and it seems to work for them.

 

[Marc Wielage]

They key to the Fincher workflow is the close collaboration with the VFX artists.

True, but they're still not editing with R3D files. They still cut the movie with proxies, and only relinked to the 5K's (or generated 4K's) at the end of the process.

 

[Simon Dunne]

Editing a move in 4K end to end in Premiere is possible, but you can do a lot of things to help yourself. It's still relevant in this day and age to think in an analogue mind like others before me have suggested. I'd seriously consider the following points closely;

-Edit in reels....so 20 > 25 mins max a reel.

This means that Premiere is dealing with less footage in the bins, there's less to lag in the project and you're building in a safety net. Point to add to this would be;

1. Save media cache next to originals (Premiere setting)
2. Set your project to autosave regularly
3. Back up those project files to the cloud or onto a USB

If something dies, you've got your rushes on LTO. They're easy to retrieve, but all your hard work is in the project file. By working in reels, you've also got the ability to hand off the reel to a VFX artist while you work on another one.

-Offline then Online

There's a lot to be said for a proxy workflow. Something as simple as 1080 DNX35 proxies will do the job. This will save you heaps of time, then make your online projects lean and fast. You might want a red rocket card to add to your system to help with faster transcodes to proxies.

You've gone for apple over PC. There's a lot to be said for CUDA acceleration, so again, working offline with proxies will help with your speed till your ready to online. Gone Girl was a PC job for a reason. There's a lot more grunt work you can do with a decent Z840 compared with a mac.....and if you're trying to edit 4K, you'll want a solid workhorse!

Getting into resolve is easy enough, you'll just need to export a DPX sequence.

Good luck!

 

[Mike Garrick]

Why are you tied into Adobe ...is it because Fincher did it? Just because he did ( I assume with a whole lot of Adobe tech support in the next room ) doesn't mean you should. Plough thru the threads on this forum for the Premier hangs and 30 minute + boot times and unlinking of large projects. The bigger project the more likely you will encounter problems here.

Having just done one I would go Avid. Haven't tried AMA 4k link with Avid yet (no transcoding) so we transcoded out @ DNxHD36 then relinked to R3D originals in DI for 2k delivery with no relinking TC issues . This can all be done in Da Vinci if you haven't got a post house.

Not sure why you need to edit on a 4k timeline either ? Remember, somewhere, somehow you have to pay render tax and you are "front loading" that tax into basically an offline process with 3 million variables and a whole lot of creative decisions that will end up on the floor. Do you really want to pay that here and yes I know you don't need to render with Premier but stretch this over a long form timeline is asking for it IMO.

Personally if you are committed to the Premier route I would do a test edit with just one Reel and see how the system performs and always do regular date/time backups outside of the Autosave feature just in case of file project corruption.