Helium vs Dragon - consider this...

[Andrei Goaga]

Thanks for confirming that the Helium Weapon 8k can do 4k ProRes at 60fps on the Full Sensor.

On a personal note - I have a Magnesium Weapon and I need to decide if I should upgrade it to a Helium Weapon or keep the Magnesium Weapon and get a Epic W. What would you guys do?

Wait, what? From the specs of the Weapon Helium I can see it can only go to 30fps in ProRes 4K. You can do 60fps only in 8K RAW or 75fps in 8K WS.

*I had the same debate. I decided to go with the Weapon Helium. As I think is a better compromise to go with cropping the sensor a bit more than to carry 2 bodies and change them when you need high FPS

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Peter, here are what I believe are hot pixels.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Wait, what? From the specs of the Weapon Helium I can see it can only go to 30fps in ProRes 4K. You can do 60fps only in 8K RAW or 75fps in 8K WS.

*I had the same debate. I decided to go with the Weapon Helium. As I think is a better compromise to go with cropping the sensor a bit more than to carry 2 bodies and change them when you need high FPS

The sensor limit is 8K 60fps yes, but the ProRes limit in 4K is 29.97fps so max in 4K ProRes 29.97fps no matter what...I'm 99.9% positive unfortunately...

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I would figure at some point they may offer higher prores frame rates. Though it could be the downscale to 4k is what is causing them to have to max out at 29.97 There is a lot of processing going on to get there... debayer, downscale etc...

 

[Brad Grimm]

Peter, here are what I believe are hot pixels.

Yea, I have been noticing these weird pixels in almost all the footage shooters have kindly shared. Started with a test chart, I posted about it and no response. But there are examples of these pixels everywhere. Any idea whats causing these?

 

[Peter Majtan]

Brad, in the chart and stair footage it is rather obvious. But in the dragonfly I believe this is the texture of the leaf. Have a look at the 10 sec motion clip I have posted earlier and check it frame-by-frame. Hot pixels will stay put. In any case I would not be surprised with these many pixels to find one or two dead/stuck ones. When I have a chance I'll look into it myself...

 

[Leroy Jackson]

I must say THIS IS A UPGRADE.....!

 

[Ivan Kovax]

You need to have a good lens of course (I think this was the Sigma's new 120-300 f/2.8), as this ends up being a S16 crop. In my case that worked as I was able to get "closer" while increasing the fps. This will not work if you need a wide FoV...

:sifone: Peter

Lovely Image! I am really impressed with that sensor. It looks very stills like, which is great.

BTW, the metadata says it was a canon 70-200 at F4. The grain is very fine, but at F2.8 I would imagine that it would all but evaporate.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Hey Ivan, the shot was little underexposed due to the conditions. And I wanted even wider DoF to get more of the dragonfly in focus, so opening wider was not an option for me. In the end I chose the right combination of settings to get the shot I wanted...

(About the lens - it was all hectic, this is why I wasn't sure which lens it was. All our lenses are Sigma's now, but we had with us some extra lenses for the NatGeo photographer featuring in the promo. The Canon's 70-200 is one of their best lenses indeed...)

:sifone: Peter

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Hey Ivan, the shot was little underexposed due to the conditions. And I wanted even wider DoF to get more of the dragonfly in focus, so opening wider was not an option for me. In the end I chose the right combination of settings to get the shot I wanted...

Wasn't a criticism mate, it was an observation

How was the roll off in your opinion?

 

[Peter Majtan]

Wasn't a criticism mate, it was an observation

How was the roll off in your opinion?

Never took it as such... ;o)

Was just explaining the reasoning for those particular settings. And that kind off is the point - in real-world scenarios we are rarely able to deploy perfect settings. In nature cinematography this is more true then ever - one blink and the shot is gone. The Dragon and the Helium are two very different sensors. With Dragon I find it hard to clip the highlights, but one needs to be careful about the bottom end. With Helium I'm very comfortable in the bottom end, but far more careful about the highlights. And please remember - this is still running on OLPF's and color-science optimized for Dragon. Once Helium has its own, I fully expect the image quality to improve further. I still can't comprehend how they got better light sensitivity / lower noise level out of smaller photo-sites.

I would absolutely love to see a 5 micron Helium version with 5K resolution at S35. That combined with 120 fps would be a killer solution for 4K projects...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Yes. That's the job of being a DP...

The LLO has less highlights than standard anyway, but it is a little disconcerting to hear loss of highlight latitude. I am not so much concerned with colour science, as this won't change middle gray when you expose with a light meter. So exposed at the same F stop, how many stops less does helium have than dragon using the same olpf in the highlights?

Regarding OLPF, I am sure that red is not going to roll out an entire line of 100s, if not 1000s of cameras with the wrong OLPF... so I am guessing that the weapon olpfs are ok for helium too. Safe bet, I guess.

 

[Jan Reiff]

as more footage i see from Epic W, as more i want to stay with my clean Epic Dragon M Sensor. Maybe i had luck and have a really good Dragon Sensor from the M-Series (never had noise issues).
i never shoot in situations on a set with controlled light at ISO2000 or more, so i believe the Helium may be cleaner, but at the moment i see more the Dragon for my jobs, and i do not want to use ND anytime to get the "best range"
the 8K resolution is a nice to have, but when i see the latest movies shot on Dragons (Zemeckis and so on) i think even 6K "is enough" ;-)
And - i have some stomach pain with the upgrade path, that a Scarlet is same as the Epic M in the upgrade path (the M was a heavy invest those days for me)

 

[Sergio Perez]

as more footage i see from Epic W, as more i want to stay with my clean Epic Dragon M Sensor. Maybe i had luck and have a really good Dragon Sensor from the M-Series (never had noise issues).
i never shoot in situations on a set with controlled light at ISO2000 or more, so i believe the Helium may be cleaner, but at the moment i see more the Dragon for my jobs, and i do not want to use ND anytime to get the "best range"
the 8K resolution is a nice to have, but when i see the latest movies shot on Dragons (Zemeckis and so on) i think even 6K "is enough" ;-)
And - i have some stomach pain with the upgrade path, that a Scarlet is same as the Epic M in the upgrade path (the M was a heavy invest those days for me)

The Epic Dragon for me was the biggest investment I made on a camera in my life. Its absolutely stunning in terms of images. Honestly, for the next 4 years, I'm not seeing much of an actual "need" to upgrade. Yet, I made a deposit for the Epic W. Its not because of "the latest and greatest", its really because updating will be inevitable down the line. By then, the Epic Dragon- which is going for already 15K here brain only, will be even cheaper. Remember the Battle Tested Red Ones? I think upgrading now and keeping your accessories of DSMC1 might actually make sense. I would guess we will be seeing DSMC1 Dragons appearing at 9K used soonish.

Having said that letting go of my Epic Dragon X 2029 "Lilau" is an emotional experience. This camera meant a lot to me, and a very big financial commitment. But we either take the generous offer from Red now, or we miss the train. I think that will be a very bad idea...

As I'm waiting for my allocation and to submit my Epic Dragon brain, I'm desperately trying to find an extra 20K for the Weapon Helium difference from the Epic W. Weapon Helium is the true next generation of our Epic Dragons. Unfortunately my financing is just not there at the moment!

 

[Jan Reiff]

yes, and no ;-)
the offer from Red is generous, but a Scarlet Owner has the same prize as a Epic M Dragon Owner. this is bit painful.
the whole Epic M package with the Dragon upgrade was around 60 000 EUR for me, now i get around 15 000 for it (or, if i can sell my stuff like SSD and so on i get at the end 18000 EUR in best case).
what will i get: a better camera in noise floor, ok. But i light my sets. Never had an issue with noise.
in 6K i get a crop. And not really more DR, at the moment it seems less in highlights.
i do not doubt that the Helium is, maybe, in general the better camera, but it´s not a revolution Dragon was to MX.So yes, i will miss a train, but i think i can shoot good movies next 3-4 years with my Dragon M, which as said had from start on a very good Sensor in it, i remember the issues of others with noise, i never had. So, i want to keep my money, earn money still with my Dragon and someday i am sure i will take a new train on the Red journey, as i am from the very early beginning 2007 with my Red One "Travis" a Red supporter, but for now, i see the Dragon 6K still a good "weapon" for me without having a weapon or Helium ;-)

 

[luigivaltulini]

Dragon is spectacular ..
I stand still for a couple of years, Helium for now has not convinced me, even if it is significant to have more pixels and be more sensitive. But its for sensitivity at this time, at the expense of the high lights.
If I have to make an investment now, surely on Vista Vision, with this I can have a more particular option for some special projects.

 

[Thai Christen]

Dragon is spectacular ..
I stand still for a couple of years, Helium for now has not convinced me, even if it is significant to have more pixels and be more sensitive. But its for sensitivity at this time, at the expense of the high lights.
If I have to make an investment now, surely on Vista Vision, with this I can have a more particular option for some special projects.

Ciao Luigi, tutto posto?
Perception-wise, I don't think that Helium has less DR than Dragon (but I could be wrong). In terms of highlights, you have to change the way you expose in regards to Dragon. Helium is very different. But the final image from Helium are definitely not less pleasing than Dragon if you nail your exposure correctly.
But we will see once new color science and maybe firmware update where it goes.

 

[Jan Reiff]

and that´s the point for me: Helium is not less pleasing than Dragon, but it´s on the other hand not far superior than Dragon. for me, the decision to send in a huge invest like my Epic M package for a camera that will bring me not significant advantage is a bad deal. Actually, the Epic M Owner are those who get the worst offer here.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Ciao Luigi, tutto posto?
Perception-wise, I don't think that Helium has less DR than Dragon (but I could be wrong). In terms of highlights, you have to change the way you expose in regards to Dragon. Helium is very different. But the final image from Helium are definitely not less pleasing than Dragon if you nail your exposure correctly.
But we will see once new color science and maybe firmware update where it goes.

eheh ciao Thai ,yepp and you?
in common use it is very difficult to distinguish 1/2 or 1 stop DR.
So you may feel remain the same.
But each has its values hehe I like to have the camera encasing more high lights hehe

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?149166-Weapon-cf-vs-Helium-Xyla-chart

 

[Michael Tiemann]

and that´s the point for me: Helium is not less pleasing than Dragon, but it´s on the other hand not far superior than Dragon. for me, the decision to send in a huge invest like my Epic M package for a camera that will bring me not significant advantage is a bad deal. Actually, the Epic M Owner are those who get the worst offer here.

Let's keep the tone positive here. It's fine to say "this is better for me" or "that is better for me" but RED communicated before the announcement they were going to pull out all the stops to give people upgrade options. And they have. Let's not fall into the trap of complaining that a generous offer is somehow a bad deal. Not everybody is in a position to take advantage of the offer right now, and some may not want to take advantage of the offer right now (for whatever reason), but let's not denigrate RED, who have been more than generous, due to our own circumstances.

I'm still trying to decide whether I want to take the offer or not (2x Weapon Mg -> Epic W or Helium 8K). I think I probably will, but I still need some time to sort it all out.