HDRx footage...

[Bill Anderson]

Yes Gunliek, but my point is that there was little foundation for arguing to maintain the status quo when one had never seen an alternative. No 1080 image will point to what a 5k will look like any more than a 35mm enlargement will prepare one for the "presence" often associated with a contact print. And it is this "ghost in the machine" that is often revealed through what might seem to many as a frivolous pursuit. Jim has just blown the G-damned doors off many a theory and "expert" conjecture. But more than that, he has just given us an incredible look into the future of Digital acquisition.

 

[Lee Fingersh]

Jim mentioned that HDRx™™ will go up to 50 frame/sec

The above shot was done at 180deg and 48fps shutter so the exposure time for full frame (don’t know the highlights calculation/acquisition frame time) was 1/92

So if maximum frame speed will be 50fps and at 180 shutter you will get 1/100 for the long exposure and for the short one will be 6 stops shorter or 3 stops what Jim is recommending for motion.

So the long exposure time will be 1/100 and short one at most 1/4800 for 6 stops and 1/800 for the 3 stops.

First of all 2^6 is 64, not 48.

But this is basically the same argument I made in one of my earlier questions on this topic - if the limit is 50fps, perhaps that means it could be done at 180 degree shutter (1/100th) and with 6 stops of HDR that means the short exposure is 1/6400th. Is that the limit? Does that mean I could do 1/800th with 3-stops of HDR (1/6400th short shutter also)?

Anyway, the RED team has read this question several times and not directly answered so I suspect they would just prefer not to answer (yet) so I'll just wait until they are. Hopefully, I won't miss the answer when it comes.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Lee, you're probably not going to get a direct answer just yet. But the way I'm interpreting the HDRx ability is not that it strictly adheres to shutter speeds and exposures as you're thinking. While it is taking multiple exposures to build two REDCODE streams for HDRx, I don't think we're seeing the result of bracketed exposures as you're describing -- or the typical approach to HDR within a single camera.

Or another way to put it is that the FPS limitation probably has more to do with internal bandwidth and processing power rather than the temporal limits of exposure bracketing. Don't assume that every exposure value read from the sensor requires a "shutter action" or reset of the photosites or sensor array.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Jim has just blown the G-damned doors off many a theory and "expert" conjecture. But more than that, he has just given us an incredible look into the future of Digital acquisition.

I think if the cinematography community generally accepts Red as the first camera that "broke" the film DR limit, then it will be a great achievement by Red. However, don't get too excited. Red is marred with poor execution and wayward product planning. Remember, Plan 9, the powerful operation system that was supposed to replace Unix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs). But, instead, Linux, which borrowed stuff from Plan 9, was/is a buggy and insercure operating system, became the defacto. Why? Because, among other reasons, its wide availability.

I think it is a known fact that some recent DSLRs still photography cameras that shoot some video have made some serious dent in Red's market. And, then there are new cinematography cameras from well-known brands such as Arri, which are beginning to become available, with ever increasing DR capabilities. Where as, not only new Red cameras including Scarlet are nowhere to be seen, it leaves little options for Red to claim "superiority" among competitors - perhaps HDRx is a saving grace.

But, Red must release a camera at this stage. Besides all the underestimation of its competitors by Red, HDR-like features are not too off-limits and not outside the grasps of the competition. If HDRx and other features delay Red considerably more, then that will hurt again like the DSLRs encroachment in Red's arena, but perhaps more in intensity, since this time it won't be still photography cameras that shoot "some" video, but professional, cinematography cameras that shoot "real" motion.

Joofa

 

[Matt Uhry]

I think if the cinematography community generally accepts Red as the first camera that "broke" the film DR limit, then it will be a great achievement by Red. However, don't get too excited. Red is marred with poor execution and wayward product planning. Remember, Plan 9, the powerful operation system that was supposed to replace Unix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs). But, instead, Linux, which borrowed stuff from Plan 9, was/is a buggy and insercure operating system, became the defacto. Why? Because, among other reasons, its wide availability.

I think it is a known fact that some recent DSLRs still photography cameras that shoot some video have made some serious dent in Red's market. And, then there are new cinematography cameras from well-known brands such as Arri, which are beginning to become available, with ever increasing DR capabilities. Where as, not only new Red cameras including Scarlet are nowhere to be seen, it leaves little options for Red to claim "superiority" among competitors - perhaps HDRx™™™™ is a saving grace.

But, Red must release a camera at this stage. Besides all the underestimation of its competitors by Red, HDR-like features are not too off-limits and not outside the grasps of the competition. If HDRx™™™™ and other features delay Red considerably more, then that will hurt again like the DSLRs encroachment in Red's arena, but perhaps more in intensity, since this time it won't be still photography cameras that shoot "some" video, but professional, cinematography cameras that shoot "real" motion.

Joofa

I know the hype and panglossisms can get a bit intense in on this board, and particularly in this section, and Red's delivery schedules can be opaque and seemingly full of misdirects.

However walk into the Red store, put down plastic, buy a MX R1, walk out, then drive over to ET, get a few more goodies and you just bought the best camera system you can buy today for general use, and it cost 1/2 to 1/3 of what you could have gotten elsewhere. Delivered to you any non holiday week day.

HDSLR's ? Sure if you can't see the differences between their images and the Red save your money, because you are not ready for the Red.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I know the hype and panglossisms can get a bit intense in on this board, and particularly in this section, and Red's delivery schedules can be opaque and seemingly full of misdirects.

However walk into the Red store, put down plastic, buy a MX R1, walk out, then drive over to ET, get a few more goodies and you just bought the best camera system you can buy today for general use, and it cost 1/2 to 1/3 of what you could have gotten elsewhere. Delivered to you any non holiday week day.

HDSLR's ? Sure if you can't see the differences between their images and the Red save your money, because you are not ready for the Red.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

This may be the most efficient summary of the current state of things that I have seen. Thanks, Matt. :hurray:

 

[Dj Joofa]

However walk into the Red store, put down plastic, buy a MX R1, walk out, then drive over to ET, get a few more goodies and you just bought the best camera system you can buy today for general use, and it cost 1/2 to 1/3 of what you could have gotten elsewhere.

I don't think there is a Red store in the city I live in. LA is too far. Online is an option. But, may be sometime down the road I will think about getting a Red camera. Not right now.

Delivered to you any non holiday week day.

Of course. I don't know about Red's customer service as I don't own any products. But the availability of senior Red leadership on this forum and elsewhere never ceases to amaze me. And, here Red gets full marks.

HDSLR's ? Sure if you can't see the differences between their images and the Red save your money, because you are not ready for the Red.

I think you are underestimating the potential market of Red among still photographers. My impression is that many still photographers, such as wedding photographers, etc., have warmly welcomed the limited video capabilities on some of the new DSLRs, as now they can supply some nice "shots of the moment" to their customer in video also - it wasn't perhaps required of many of them, but the availability of small videos has certainly increased the appeal among such photographers. Perhaps some ad makers also. So many would resist going to Red now for small length videos. Especially, that their DSLrs cameras are perhaps smaller, require shorter setups, etc., for a small segment of video.

Joofa

 

[Shane Betts]

Joofa, I'm perhaps an odd one on here. Unlike you, I "have" a Red one MX and I fully appreciate how amazing the camera is, at the price point and way above.

But it's not mine. I work on staff and although I'm in charge of the camera, it's not mine to do with as I please. This is very frustrating - it's like having a crush on the girl at the next desk and knowing she is unaware of your existence. So, just like you Joofa and many others, I'm waiting for Red to deliver Epic and Scarlet and hoping I'll be able to find the cash to purchase when that happens. And like many others, I've taken the DSLR path in the interim. And Matt's right. Even though I fully appreciate the HUGE difference in quality between a DSLR and Red, I simply don't have the gigs to justify the expenditure. But that's no-one's fault but mine - and it certainly ain't Jim's.

Matt's point is that Red have already provided a tool beyond what any other company has, at a price point beyond comparison. And now they're building a new range of cameras that raise the bar exponentially higher again. This doesn't happen overnight but they do offer the next best thing right now. Sure, there are cheaper alternatives and, depending on your needs, some of these might do the job - but they'll never really compare.

I've gone the DSLR path for two reasons. One, I can see that much of the support kit I'm building now will fit nicely on my Scarlet when it arrives and two, I simply can't afford/justify the cost of the new video cameras. Because, despite all the posts suggesting the opposite, the other manufacturers just refuse to get it. Sonysonic et al still want Scarlet-like prices for really average video cameras and they'll only ever take the hint when their sales are effected.

So I'm forced, on my budget, to buy what's available now. But "my" Red One has shown me just how big a compromise they represent. :emote_hippie:

 

[Jon Farhat]

No real tradeoff.

No real tradeoff.

Now though we have to determine which is more advantageous in a shot: Lower compression or the xPass. FX sups are going to need to evaluate the trade-offs and see when each is appropriate. I assume we can't go mathematical Lossless and HDRx™.

I think other VFX sups will be pleased to find the xPass can be achieved at so close to 'lossless', which at it's best compression is far beyond our needs. My opinion. There is a point when 'total lossless' becomes pointless in a practical production sense... especially at the best ratio. I think Deanan mentioned was 5:1. The massive D-range makes up for the need to exceed this ratio.

Again, seeing is believing. The VFX day that is being planned by Jim and all, will include the chance to run the test material into your comping pipeline. I'd be very interested in each facility's tests with this footage.

I can't imagine what 'even better' means in regards to Graeme's next pass on this. Fun stuff.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

While I can easily get excited by operating the touch-screen with one hand while holding it in the other

I'm really looking forward to this by itself.

 

[Andrew M.]

I think you are underestimating the potential market of Red among still photographers.

Joofa

I agree with that 100%. In spite that I have couple of high end DLSRs and RED, since two years or so my best stills comes from RED.

Especially when it comes to catching the beauty, the constantly rolling 24fps does the magic. You catch things that you will never catch with intrusive 10fps (burst of 80 frames or so) of DLSR.

Even if I could put on DLSR all these lenses that I can use on RED, it would not make much more difference.

Picking the right frame “the one” out of thousands of continues recording is something that if you only try once, you will be hooked forever.

With continuous prefetch you can catch event the things that just escaped your attention.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Epic is five years ahead of everyone else, if you can't see that given all the information available to you then you need to read up some more... No DSLR can begin to get close. No system available can do what this system can do. In all due respect all the major competitors are being left in the dust for all round professional digital cinema acquisition.

Red is marred with poor execution and wayward product planning.

Mate, if you can show me one person out of the first roll out of 10,000 or so cameras the company produced who has been 'marred' because of poor execution or regret their decision due to 'wayward' product planning please do let us know because I have yet to meet one.


One thing to always remember is Red started off totally new to this market and had just two things. #1 A desire to make a great Digital Cinema camera and #2 To fulfill the wishes of potential customers who were frustrated with companies not listening and not producing what they knew was possible. Red has excelled with the Red One and with even to the biggest of dreamers, goes beyond comprehension and expectations with the Epic-and that is before HDR even "comes into the picture"

A new company taking on a new market is always going to have teething problems. We are past the teething stage.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think other VFX sups will be pleased to find the xPass can be achieved at so close to 'lossless', which at it's best compression is far beyond our needs. My opinion. There is a point when 'total lossless' becomes pointless in a practical production sense... especially at the best ratio. I think Deanan mentioned was 5:1. The massive D-range makes up for the need to exceed this ratio.

Again, seeing is believing. The VFX day that is being planned by Jim and all, will include the chance to run the test material into your comping pipeline. I'd be very interested in each facility's tests with this footage.

I can't imagine what 'even better' means in regards to Graeme's next pass on this. Fun stuff.

Can't wait to see it. I remember the first greenscreen shot off of the breadbox prototype. It was truly a sight to behold. And now that I think about it, that was also probably the last time anyone has ever seen an uncompressed greenscreen frame from a RED since REDCode wasn't running yet.

Time for some more pumpkin murder action Jarred!

 

[joshua csehak]

But, instead, Linux, which borrowed stuff from Plan 9, was/is a buggy and insercure operating system, became the defacto. Why? Because, among other reasons, its wide availability.

Wha?? Linux is widely regarded as the most solid and secure OS out there. Most web servers run linux for this reason. Check out Neal Stephenson's "In the beginning was the command line" for a fun read on Linux, and OS's in general:

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

 

[Michael Hastings]

Wha?? Linux is widely regarded as the most solid and secure OS out there. Most web servers run linux for this reason. Check out Neal Stephenson's "In the beginning was the command line" for a fun read on Linux, and OS's in general:

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

Wasn't the original TIVO software built on Linux. Mine has been running 24-7, except for hurricane power outages, since Christmas 2000.

 

[Antony M]

I think if the cinematography community generally accepts Red as the first camera that "broke" the film DR limit,

The Epic may be the first 5K camera to break the film DR limit.
Or it may even be the first camera in mass-production.
But not the first camera.

Some colleagues of mine were filming last weekend with an HD HDR camera (1080) with 20 stops of DR (http://digital.warwick.ac.uk/goHDR/)

 

[Jason Sinclair]

The Epic may be the first 5K camera to break the film DR limit.
Or it may even be the first camera in mass-production.
But not the first camera.

Some colleagues of mine were filming last weekend with an HD HDR camera (1080) with 20 stops of DR (http://digital.warwick.ac.uk/goHDR/)

I have done timelapse HDR on my Nikon over two years ago. If they have solved motion artifacts in camera then that is a different story, but it reads on the site they do bracketing...

 

[Jannard]

I have done timelapse HDR on my Nikon over two years ago. If they have solved motion artifacts in camera then that is a different story, but it reads on the site they do bracketing...

Trust me... time lapse HDR and motion HDR are two entirely different things.

Jim

 

[Karel Bata]

Wow. This has totally dispelled any lingering doubts - and I'm a real nit-picker!

I bet Arri are pissed!

 

[Michael Brennan]

if you can show me one person out of the first roll out of 10,000 or so cameras the company produced who has been 'marred'

We dont know how many cameras have been sold and or are in use.
More than anyone expected, for sure..... but 10,000?



Mike Brennan